http://www.wikichristian.org/wiki/en/api.php?action=feedcontributions&user=Ymmotrojam&feedformat=atom WikiChristian - User contributions [en] 2024-03-29T00:06:43Z User contributions MediaWiki 1.32.1 http://www.wikichristian.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=User:Ymmotrojam&diff=648151 User:Ymmotrojam 2008-10-09T00:46:09Z <p>Ymmotrojam: Replacing page with 'Tom Major. I'm largely inactive here.'</p> <hr /> <div>Tom Major. I'm largely inactive here.</div> Ymmotrojam http://www.wikichristian.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Translating_the_Bible&diff=144091 Translating the Bible 2007-04-11T16:26:14Z <p>Ymmotrojam: </p> <hr /> <div>{{quote | text=Christ wishes his mysteries to be made to be made known as widely as possible. I would wish even all women to read the gospels, and the letters of St Paul. I wish that they were translated into all languages of all Christian people - that they might be read and known not just by Scots and Irish, but even by the Turks and Saracens... [[Erasmus]]}}<br /> <br /> ==Synopsis==<br /> The [[Bible]] is a collection of books, poetry and letters that were written over hundreds of years. The [[Old Testament]] books were written in [[Hebrew]] and compiled into a collection before the time of [[Christ]]. The [[New Testament]] books were written in [[Greek]] after Christ's resurrection and over the following centuries were compiled into a single collection. Although the Bible was initially translated into the languages of the people, for example, Latin for the church in Italy, it wasn't until the Protestant reformation that widespread translation of the Bible into many languages, such as German and English really began to occur.<br /> <br /> ==Contents==<br /> {{topics}}<br /> * [[Biblical Manuscripts Index]]<br /> * [[Historical accuracy of the Bible]]<br /> * [[Biblical inerrancy]]<br /> * [[Hebrew]] | [[Aramaic]] | [[Greek]]<br /> * [[English translations of the Bible]]<br /> <br /> {{opinions}}<br /> * [[Luther's view on the canon of scripture (J.S.)]]<br /> * [[Which Bible translation is best? (anon)]]<br /> <br /> {{quotes}}<br /> <br /> ==Main article==<br /> The [[Bible]] is a collection of books, poetry and letters that were written over hundreds of years. The [[Old Testament]] books were written in [[Hebrew]] and compiled into a collection before the time of [[Christ]]. The [[New Testament]] books were written in [[Greek]] after Christ's resurrection and over the following centuries were compiled into a single collection. Although the Bible was initially translated into the languages of the people, for example, Latin for the church in Italy, it wasn't until the Protestant reformation that widespread translation of the Bible into many languages, such as German and English really began to occur.<br /> <br /> ===Formation of Bible===<br /> <br /> ===Early Translations===<br /> <br /> ===English Translations===<br /> The efforts of translating the Bible from its original languages of Greek and Hebrew into English can be traced back to the end of the 7th century, however it was not until the fourteenth century that a complete translation was finished. There have been hundreds of subsequent translations into English, some of the best known include the archaic [[King James Version]] and the modern English [[New International Version]].<br /> <br /> {{returnto}} [[Bible]]<br /> __NOTOC__</div> Ymmotrojam http://www.wikichristian.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=User:Ymmotrojam&diff=144090 User:Ymmotrojam 2007-04-11T16:22:42Z <p>Ymmotrojam: </p> <hr /> <div>[[Image:Tommajor.jpg|thumb]]<br /> [[Tom Major]]. 20 year old, follower of [[Jesus Christ]]. I have a passion for learning God's Word and growing in a deeper relationship with my saviour. I also have a passion for reaching out to the world through the use of wiki software. I am a server-administrator and webmaster or co-webmaster of the following wiki sites.<br /> *http://www.wikible.org (server/wiki admin)<br /> *http://www.theopedia.com (server/wiki admin, co-webmaster with [[Aaron Shafovaloff]])<br /> *http://mormonwiki.org (server-admin, mostly Aaron works on the content)<br /> *http://creationwiki.org (server/wiki admin)<br /> *http://wikichristian.org (server/wiki admin)<br /> <br /> I'm currently attending Bible college at ''[[Emmaus Bible College]]'' in Dubuque, Iowa. When at home in Baltimore Maryland, I attend ''[[Forge Road Bible Chapel]]''. Their website is... http://www.forgeroadbiblechapel.org.</div> Ymmotrojam http://www.wikichristian.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=User_talk:DaliJim&diff=143697 User talk:DaliJim 2007-02-23T16:17:07Z <p>Ymmotrojam: /* what a combination */</p> <hr /> <div>==Welcome==<br /> <br /> Hello, DaliJim, and welcome to WikiChristian! We need all the help we can get, and it's really nice to see a new user come along!<br /> <br /> By the way, you said you were a homosexual; does this mean that you don't believe that the Bible is infallible? Or do you simply believe that the Bible allows for all or certain types of homosexuality? I tend to take the latter, somewhat. It really depends; I feel that any type of ''sexual'' contact is inappropriate, but love and affection are fine with me (even permanently living together, as long as they don't get ''gay married'', as I feel that this is a violation of God's original intent for marriage). What's your view?<br /> <br /> God bless! -- [[User:P.B. Pilhet|P.B. Pilhet]] / [[User talk:P.B. Pilhet|Talk]] 16:08, 13 February 2007 (EST)<br /> <br /> == what a combination ==<br /> <br /> :&quot;''I am a [[christian]]-[[spiritual]] (born Catholic but I'm not in a religion), [[pacifist]], with some interest in [[socialism]], [[communism]] and [[anarchism]], and I am [[homosexual]]. YES! All of this together is possible!''&quot; --[[User:DaliJim]]<br /> Welcome to [[Project:About|WikiChristian]]. Because of your stated beliefs, I would like to dialogue with you on some issues.<br /> :Recommended reading:<br /> ::[http://christiananswers.net/q-cross/cross-gaychange.html What About Gays Needs to Change? It may not be what you think!] ''Author'': Tim Wilkins, Cross Ministry. Wilkins is a &lt;u&gt;former homosexual&lt;/u&gt;.<br /> ::[http://christiananswers.net/q-dml/dml-y023.html Can a gay or lesbian person go to heaven?] ''Author'': Dawson McAllister<br /> ::[http://christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c040.html What's wrong with being gay?: Homosexual behavior versus the Bible] ''Author'': Ann Lamont, Answers in Genesis.<br /> ::[http://christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-f018.html What does the Bible say about same sex marriage?] ''Author'': John Edmiston.<br /> &lt;big&gt;'''Where I am coming from?'''&lt;/big&gt;&lt;br /&gt;<br /> I am coming from an evangelical, born-again, follower of [[Jesus Christ]], the same Jesus as [[Billy Graham]]/the Bible, point of view ;-). That's the shortest one sentence description I could come up with, hehe. Anyways, why do I say this? I say this because there is much confusion in today's world on what being a Christian means or is. You state that you are from a Catholic background. In today's world, I would highly recommend not trusting the statements of some group as to whether they ''say'' they are &quot;Christian&quot; or not, but read the Bible for yourself and &quot;...hold fast to that which is good&quot; (1 Thessalonians 5:21). There are many organizations that have christian-sounding terminology, but their underlying motives are not Biblical. After all, the whole idea of Christianity came from the Bible, so that is the ultimate source ;-).<br /> <br /> With something so important as your eternal destiny, I would say it is extremely important in today's relativistic culture to know for sure what you believe. It is also important to be able to sort through the fallacies of each false belief system. Also, don't take my word for it, read the scriptures for yourself. I will try to point out various verses as I go.<br /> <br /> I don't have time at the moment to ask my own questions, but I would encourage you to read over the recommended reading and make comments and questions about it. --[[User:Ymmotrojam|Tom]] 11:06, 23 February 2007 (EST)</div> Ymmotrojam http://www.wikichristian.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=User_talk:DaliJim&diff=143696 User talk:DaliJim 2007-02-23T16:16:52Z <p>Ymmotrojam: /* what a combination */</p> <hr /> <div>==Welcome==<br /> <br /> Hello, DaliJim, and welcome to WikiChristian! We need all the help we can get, and it's really nice to see a new user come along!<br /> <br /> By the way, you said you were a homosexual; does this mean that you don't believe that the Bible is infallible? Or do you simply believe that the Bible allows for all or certain types of homosexuality? I tend to take the latter, somewhat. It really depends; I feel that any type of ''sexual'' contact is inappropriate, but love and affection are fine with me (even permanently living together, as long as they don't get ''gay married'', as I feel that this is a violation of God's original intent for marriage). What's your view?<br /> <br /> God bless! -- [[User:P.B. Pilhet|P.B. Pilhet]] / [[User talk:P.B. Pilhet|Talk]] 16:08, 13 February 2007 (EST)<br /> <br /> == what a combination ==<br /> <br /> :&quot;''I am a [[christian]]-[[spiritual]] (born Catholic but I'm not in a religion), [[pacifist]], with some interest in [[socialism]], [[communism]] and [[anarchism]], and I am [[homosexual]]. YES! All of this together is possible!''&quot; --[[User:DaliJim]]<br /> Welcome to [[Project:About|WikiChristian]]. Because of your stated beliefs, I would like to dialogue with you on some issues.<br /> :Recommended reading:<br /> ::[http://christiananswers.net/q-cross/cross-gaychange.html What About Gays Needs to Change? It may not be what you think!] ''Author'': Tim Wilkins, Cross Ministry. Wilkins is a &lt;u&gt;former homosexual&lt;/u&gt;.<br /> ::[http://christiananswers.net/q-dml/dml-y023.html Can a gay or lesbian person go to heaven?] ''Author'': Dawson McAllister<br /> ::[http://christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c040.html What's wrong with being gay?: Homosexual behavior versus the Bible] ''Author'': Ann Lamont, Answers in Genesis.<br /> ::[http://christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-f018.html What does the Bible say about same sex marriage?] ''Author'': John Edmiston.<br /> &lt;big&gt;'''Where I am coming from?'''&lt;/big&gt;<br /> I am coming from an evangelical, born-again, follower of [[Jesus Christ]], the same Jesus as [[Billy Graham]]/the Bible, point of view ;-). That's the shortest one sentence description I could come up with, hehe. Anyways, why do I say this? I say this because there is much confusion in today's world on what being a Christian means or is. You state that you are from a Catholic background. In today's world, I would highly recommend not trusting the statements of some group as to whether they ''say'' they are &quot;Christian&quot; or not, but read the Bible for yourself and &quot;...hold fast to that which is good&quot; (1 Thessalonians 5:21). There are many organizations that have christian-sounding terminology, but their underlying motives are not Biblical. After all, the whole idea of Christianity came from the Bible, so that is the ultimate source ;-).<br /> <br /> With something so important as your eternal destiny, I would say it is extremely important in today's relativistic culture to know for sure what you believe. It is also important to be able to sort through the fallacies of each false belief system. Also, don't take my word for it, read the scriptures for yourself. I will try to point out various verses as I go.<br /> <br /> I don't have time at the moment to ask my own questions, but I would encourage you to read over the recommended reading and make comments and questions about it. --[[User:Ymmotrojam|Tom]] 11:06, 23 February 2007 (EST)</div> Ymmotrojam http://www.wikichristian.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=User_talk:DaliJim&diff=143695 User talk:DaliJim 2007-02-23T16:06:57Z <p>Ymmotrojam: what a combination</p> <hr /> <div>==Welcome==<br /> <br /> Hello, DaliJim, and welcome to WikiChristian! We need all the help we can get, and it's really nice to see a new user come along!<br /> <br /> By the way, you said you were a homosexual; does this mean that you don't believe that the Bible is infallible? Or do you simply believe that the Bible allows for all or certain types of homosexuality? I tend to take the latter, somewhat. It really depends; I feel that any type of ''sexual'' contact is inappropriate, but love and affection are fine with me (even permanently living together, as long as they don't get ''gay married'', as I feel that this is a violation of God's original intent for marriage). What's your view?<br /> <br /> God bless! -- [[User:P.B. Pilhet|P.B. Pilhet]] / [[User talk:P.B. Pilhet|Talk]] 16:08, 13 February 2007 (EST)<br /> <br /> == what a combination ==<br /> <br /> :&quot;''I am a [[christian]]-[[spiritual]] (born Catholic but I'm not in a religion), [[pacifist]], with some interest in [[socialism]], [[communism]] and [[anarchism]], and I am [[homosexual]]. YES! All of this together is possible!''&quot; --[[User:DaliJim]]<br /> Welcome to [[Project:About|WikiChristian]]. Because of your stated beliefs, I would like to dialogue with you on some issues.<br /> :Recommended reading:<br /> ::[http://christiananswers.net/q-cross/cross-gaychange.html What About Gays Needs to Change? It may not be what you think!] ''Author'': Tim Wilkins, Cross Ministry. Wilkins is a &lt;u&gt;former homosexual&lt;/u&gt;.<br /> ::[http://christiananswers.net/q-dml/dml-y023.html Can a gay or lesbian person go to heaven?] ''Author'': Dawson McAllister<br /> ::[http://christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c040.html What's wrong with being gay?: Homosexual behavior versus the Bible] ''Author'': Ann Lamont, Answers in Genesis.<br /> ::[http://christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-f018.html What does the Bible say about same sex marriage?] ''Author'': John Edmiston.<br /> ===Where I am coming from?===<br /> I am coming from an evangelical, born-again, follower of [[Jesus Christ]], the same Jesus as [[Billy Graham]]/the Bible, point of view ;-). That's the shortest one sentence description I could come up with, hehe. Anyways, why do I say this? I say this because there is much confusion in today's world on what being a Christian means or is. You state that you are from a Catholic background. In today's world, I would highly recommend not trusting the statements of some group as to whether they ''say'' they are &quot;Christian&quot; or not, but read the Bible for yourself and &quot;...hold fast to that which is good&quot; (1 Thessalonians 5:21). There are many organizations that have christian-sounding terminology, but their underlying motives are not Biblical. After all, the whole idea of Christianity came from the Bible, so that is the ultimate source ;-).<br /> <br /> With something so important as your eternal destiny, I would say it is extremely important in today's relativistic culture to know for sure what you believe. It is also important to be able to sort through the fallacies of each false belief system. Also, don't take my word for it, read the scriptures for yourself. I will try to point out various verses as I go.<br /> <br /> I don't have time at the moment to ask my own questions, but I would encourage you to read over the recommended reading and make comments and questions about it. --[[User:Ymmotrojam|Tom]] 11:06, 23 February 2007 (EST)</div> Ymmotrojam http://www.wikichristian.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=WikiChristian_talk:Copyrights&diff=143394 WikiChristian talk:Copyrights 2007-01-14T19:08:21Z <p>Ymmotrojam: </p> <hr /> <div>== Is it still GFDL? ==<br /> Hi! I'm trying to figure out what copyright status the content of this wiki has and noticed that there's no icon on the bottom left corner of the articles. As I see from [[Wikichristian:Copyrights]], the contents used to be/are under the GFDL. Is this still true? GBY! [[User:Denise|Denise]] 05:39, 14 January 2007 (EST)<br /> <br /> :I added the icon back and linked it to this page :-). I would personally advocate a ''Public Domain'' stance though, as that is freer than GFDL. --[[User:Ymmotrojam|Tom]] 14:08, 14 January 2007 (EST)</div> Ymmotrojam http://www.wikichristian.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Spamprotectionmatch&diff=143341 MediaWiki:Spamprotectionmatch 2006-12-21T00:17:56Z <p>Ymmotrojam: revert</p> <hr /> <div>The following text is what triggered our spam filter: $1</div> Ymmotrojam http://www.wikichristian.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Spamprotectionmatch&diff=143328 MediaWiki:Spamprotectionmatch 2006-12-19T07:22:50Z <p>Ymmotrojam: </p> <hr /> <div>The following text is what triggered our spam filter: ''[hidden for security reasons, please inform an admin]''</div> Ymmotrojam http://www.wikichristian.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Usernameblacklist&diff=143327 MediaWiki:Usernameblacklist 2006-12-19T07:15:52Z <p>Ymmotrojam: </p> <hr /> <div>* ((J|j)ò(E|e))<br /> * ((J|j)(O|o)(E|e) (0-9))<br /> * ((0-9)(0-9)(0-9)(0-9)(0-9)(0-9)(0-9)(0-9)(0-9)(0-9))<br /> * ((F|f)(U|u|ù)(C|c)(K|k))<br /> * ((D|d)(A|a)(M|m)(N|n))<br /> * ((P|p)(R|r)(O|o)(B|b)(O|o)(A|a)(R|r)(D|d))<br /> * ((Y|y)(M|m)(M|m)(O|o)(T|t)(R|r)(O|o)(J|j)(A|a)(M|m))<br /> * ((M|m)(A|a)(J|j)(O|o)(R|r))<br /> * ((D|d)(E|e)(M|m)(O|o)(N|n))<br /> * ((S|s)(A|a)(T|t)(A|a)(N|n))<br /> * ((L|l)(U|u)(C|c)(I|i)(F|f)(E|e)(R|r))<br /> * ((D|d)(E|e)(V|v)(I|i)(L|l))</div> Ymmotrojam http://www.wikichristian.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Usernameblacklist&diff=143244 MediaWiki:Usernameblacklist 2006-12-15T19:21:36Z <p>Ymmotrojam: </p> <hr /> <div>* ((J|j)ò(E|e))<br /> * ((J|j)(O|o)(E|e) (0-9))<br /> * ((0-9)(0-9)(0-9)(0-9)(0-9)(0-9)(0-9)(0-9)(0-9)(0-9))<br /> * ((F|f)(U|u|ù)(C|c)(K|k))<br /> * ((D|d)(A|a)(M|m)(N|n))<br /> * ((P|p)(R|r)(O|o)(B|b)(O|o)(A|a)(R|r)(D|d))<br /> * ((Y|y)(M|m)(M|m)(O|o)(T|t)(R|r)(O|o)(J|j)(A|a)(M|m))<br /> * ((D|d)(E|e)(M|m)(O|o)(N|n))<br /> * ((S|s)(A|a)(T|t)(A|a)(N|n))<br /> * ((L|l)(U|u)(C|c)(I|i)(F|f)(E|e)(R|r))<br /> * ((D|d)(E|e)(V|v)(I|i)(L|l))</div> Ymmotrojam http://www.wikichristian.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Usernameblacklist&diff=143221 MediaWiki:Usernameblacklist 2006-12-14T23:02:36Z <p>Ymmotrojam: </p> <hr /> <div>* *(J|j)(O|o)(E|e) (0-9)*<br /> * (0-9)(0-9)(0-9)(0-9)(0-9)(0-9)(0-9)(0-9)(0-9)(0-9)<br /> * *(F|f)(U|u)(C|c)(K|k)*<br /> * *(D|d)(A|a)(M|m)(N|n)*<br /> * *(P|p)(R|r)(O|o)(B|b)(O|o)(A|a)(R|r)(D|d)*<br /> * *(Y|y)(M|m)(M|m)(O|o)(T|t)(R|r)(O|o)(J|j)(A|a)(M|m)*<br /> * *(D|d)(E|e)(M|m)(O|o)(N|n)*<br /> * *(S|s)(A|a)(T|t)(A|a)(N|n)*<br /> * *(L|l)(U|u)(C|c)(I|i)(F|f)(E|e)(R|r)*<br /> * *(D|d)(E|e)(V|v)(I|i)(L|l)*</div> Ymmotrojam http://www.wikichristian.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Usernameblacklist&diff=143206 MediaWiki:Usernameblacklist 2006-12-13T21:59:41Z <p>Ymmotrojam: </p> <hr /> <div>* (J|j)(O|o)(E|e) (0-9)<br /> * (J|j)(O|o)(E|e) (0-9)(0-9)<br /> * (0-9)(0-9)(0-9)(0-9)(0-9)(0-9)(0-9)(0-9)(0-9)(0-9)<br /> * *(F|f)(U|u)(C|c)(K|k)*<br /> * *(D|d)(A|a)(M|m)(N|n)*<br /> * *(P|p)(R|r)(O|o)(B|b)(O|o)(A|a)(R|r)(D|d)*<br /> * *(Y|y)(M|m)(M|m)(O|o)(T|t)(R|r)(O|o)(J|j)(A|a)(M|m)*<br /> * *(D|d)(E|e)(M|m)(O|o)(N|n)*<br /> * *(S|s)(A|a)(T|t)(A|a)(N|n)*<br /> * *(L|l)(U|u)(C|c)(I|i)(F|f)(E|e)(R|r)*<br /> * *(D|d)(E|e)(V|v)(I|i)(L|l)*</div> Ymmotrojam http://www.wikichristian.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=User_talk:Graham_grove/Archive_1&diff=143203 User talk:Graham grove/Archive 1 2006-12-13T21:26:52Z <p>Ymmotrojam: Reverted edits by Joe 4 (Talk); changed back to last version by Graham grove</p> <hr /> <div>Hi Graham, How are you? I am wondering if we should try to change our domain name to WikiChristian.org and forward the wikichristian.com to that domain since it makes more sense since we want to keep it a non-commercial project. We can also consider registering a [[not for profit organization]] as we grow. Please share your thoughts on this. We already have both the domains with us. Thanks. -Prab<br /> <br /> :Hi Prab, Sure. I don't really know what the difference between .com and .org is - but if you think there is a good reason for the change, go for it. --Graham<br /> <br /> Hi Graham. I'm glad you're working here. This idea of a Christian wiki has a lot of potential. --[[User:DavidCary|DavidCary]] 22:15, 8 Mar 2005 (PST)<br /> <br /> :Thanks David --Graham<br /> <br /> ::''You're welcome. Yes, I would like to [http://theconnexion.net/compass/index.php/User_talk:DavidCary contribute]. I'm glad WikiChristian and the Compass wiki are [http://theconnexion.net/compass/index.php/User_talk:WikiSysop getting along so well]. --[[User:DavidCary|DavidCary]] 18:00, 22 Mar 2005 (PST)''<br /> <br /> Hi Graham, Thank you for the wonderful work you are doing with all the lyrics. In order to better organize the information in the wiki, it is a good idea to categorize the pages so that the system automatically creates alphabetical lists. All we have to do is to type &lt;nowiki&gt;[[Category:type]]&lt;/nowiki&gt; at the bottom of the page. For example, the songs category pages should have &lt;nowiki&gt;[[category:songs]]&lt;/nowiki&gt;. Also, there are some dead end pages that do not have any link and the best way to avoid creating dead end pages is by categories and templates. To create a new template, just type &lt;nowiki&gt;{{template name}}&lt;/nowiki&gt; and edit the template page with the link created. Thanks for the understanding. --[[User:Prab]]<br /> <br /> :Hi Prab, Yep - it's a good idea to use templates and categories. Makes sense to me. However, I still like to have the index and contents pages under the control of the users rather than at the mercy of an automated system. Thanks --Graham <br /> <br /> Hi Graham, Thanks for the message in my user page. I think we can do both. Actually, the system does a good job in organizing the info alphabetically but giving the control to the users as well makes sense and we will continue both. Thanks. -Prab<br /> <br /> Hello, Graham. Thank you for the warm welcome to WikiChristian. As a United Methodist, I suspect I'll be making lots of Wesleyan-type edits but hope to add significantly to the encyclopedia in a number of categories. Good to be a part of the community! Shalom! [[User:KHM03|KHM03]] 15:05, 22 Mar 2005 (PST)<br /> <br /> ==Song Styleguide==<br /> I'd like to draw your attention to this talk page, Graham, [[WikiChristian talk:Song styleguide]]. I've made a pretty signigicant change to the titles of the songs and lyrics and hope to promote a single style for the titles. --[[User:Mustaphile|Mustaphile]] 11:06, 8 May 2005 (PDT)<br /> <br /> ==found your picture==<br /> Found your picture on your website<br /> <br /> Good to put a face to the name. {{smile}} --[[User:Mustaphile|Mustaphile]] 20:57, 22 May 2005 (PDT)<br /> <br /> ==writing in first person==<br /> Hi Graham (my name also happens to be Graham), I was just reading through some of the articles and I notice that frequently in the articles you write you use first person voice liberally. Not that I object to this in general, it's definitely a great tool for communicating Christian truth. However, since this is an Encyclopedia, perhaps we should consider using a more objective (third person) voice as much as possible? In articles and opinions, of course, first person is entirely acceptable. But in the more historical and factual entries, I wonder whether the first person voice comes off as scholarly or merely as &quot;preachy,&quot; thus turning off potential believers and causing WikiChristian to be viewed as &quot;just another evangelist website.&quot; Again, not that I object to your writing style in general, I think you're doing a great thing by devoting so much of your time to this project! [[User:Avertist|Avertist]] 09:07, 23 Apr 2005 (PDT)<br /> <br /> :Hi Avertis. I've really enjoyed learning from your articles. You're doing a great job.<br /> :It's quite true that I do write opinions often. I try to make it clear that it is an opinion - which is why I write my name next to the article - so that a user can skip stuff I write if they don't want to read opinions, or so they can click on my name and read my background and understand my biases. You're also right in saying that using the first person doesn't always come off as scholarly. But when discussing Christianity, does it always have to be scholarly? Can experience or a testimony or even just a gut feeling be as worthwhile?<br /> :I guess I disagree with you on one point. You say that this is an Encyclopedia. My hope is that this is not only an encyclopedia - if it were only an encyclopedia then why not just write in Wikipedia? I hope this is a place where people can write their views and opinions including their understanding of history. The way I am going to write about about the Reformation is probably going to be quite different than the way a Roman Catholic would write about the Reformation, or again different from the way an atheist would write about it. Although there are historical facts involved, I think there will usually be a slant in one direction or another. I think it is best to allow multiple articles on the history of the reformation (or any other topic). Perhaps there should be the main article that is dry and factual only, but I think it is fine also for there to be lots of other articles which tend to have a slant in one way or another. Sometimes that will be &quot;preachy&quot; but hopefully at least it will be open for dialogue, discussion and rebuttal. I also don't think making this a purely factual Encyclopedia is likely to help brng people to Christ. Maybe I'm wrong - I'd be interested to know if anyone has been significantly drawn to Jesus by looking up information about Christianity on wikipedia.<br /> :If you look at the [[baptism]] page you'll see that I've written an article there which is clearly my own opinion. Obviously there will be people who have different opinions on this topic. I think it would be great if other people add links for new articles where they can explain their alternate views. Even the writer of Easton's Bible Dictionary is pretty biased (and this is supposed to be a dictionary which I would imagine shouldn't be biased). If you read [[Bible Dictionary: Baptism]] you'll see that there is clearly a particular point being pushed.<br /> :What you say is important though. I shouldn't be writing things that turn people away from Christ - I guess what I want to do is write things that say what I believe and challenge people to think about what they believe - be it the same or different from my belief. Sometimes I fail at that task. If you let me know which comments I make in which articles that are specifically preachy and that you think would really offend people, let me know and I'll try and fix them up. Your brother in Christ, --Graham Grove<br /> <br /> ::Hi Graham, I worry that I may have overstated the problem in my first post. In the vast majority of your articles I don't see anything to worry about. But take, for instance, in the conclusion section of [[An overview of the main denominations and the history of the Christian Church (By G.G.)]]. The rest of the article is mostly factual, but the conclusion is definitely composed mostly of opinion. It's an opinion I share completely, so I'm not objecting to the content of it, but it seems to me that the best place for that section would be in a separate article discussing your opinion on the unity of the Church, etc. And though it does not sound particularly preachy to me, I can almost guarantee you that some of my atheist/agnostic friends would read it as trying to &quot;explain away&quot; the &quot;fact&quot; that Christianity just &quot;can't figure itself out,&quot; or something to that effect. Would minor reorganizations like this actually convert them? Probably not, but it would remove that small objection they may have.<br /> ::I completely agree that Wikichristian should be much more than a dry encyclopedia; my concern is that the division between fact and opinion might become blurred if we are not careful about this. [[User:Avertist|Avertist]] 00:26, 24 Apr 2005 (PDT)<br /> <br /> :::Thanks Avertis. I think you were quite right - that was out of place in an article that probably should have remained neutral and factual. I've moved my conclusion into a separate article. Thanks for the advice. --Graham Grove, 24 April<br /> <br /> ::Hi Graham, I'm glad we agreed on this :). On a semi-related note, I thought more about what you said about wikipedia being the place for a &quot;dry encyclopedia&quot; and I thought that perhaps just to save time and effort, we could import articles en masse to wikichristian on historical and factual matters. Since wikipedia articles are generally pretty reliable, this way we'll be able to concentrate more of our efforts on dialogue and writing opinion articles (which I agree should be the core of wikichristian). Since you're one of the &quot;main guys&quot; here, I figured I'd ask your thoughts before I started doing it a bunch. But just so you can get an idea of what I mean, I imported the [[Arianism]] article from wikipedia on top of my old entry. As helpful as it is to me to write up my own short explanations of things, I think this would probably be more efficient and beneficial to wikichristian as a whole. I'm interested to know your thoughts. [[User:Avertist|Avertist]] 09:39, 24 Apr 2005 (PDT)<br /> <br /> :::G'day Avertist. Go for it, transfer any articles you think a worth transferring. I've noticed sometimes that I've got to have my thinking hat on when reading articles from Wikipedia. For instance, in the article on Christianity, it has a list of famous Christians, one of whom is Joseph Smith. He's the founder of the Mormon religion, so I don't think it is accurate to say he is a famous Christian. Certainly he was a very influential man and a famous religious leader who has had a major impact in history, but I think most Christians would agree that he should be left off a list of famous Christians. In general though, like you've suggested, Wikipedia is pretty reliable and thorough, so go for it and transfer away. {{unsigned|Graham grove}}<br /> <br /> ==vandalism==<br /> I have noticed that you have some users who are constantly editing the articles to say nasty things. They switch words, screw up spelling so that links do not work, and seem to be somewhat of an annoyance. Is there any way to stop this? It may be that this is the downside to a website like this where users can freely edit each other's work. [[User:JordanBarrett|JordanBarrett]] 13:42, 28 July 2005 (PDT)<br /> <br /> :Yep, that tends to happen a lot. When Prab initially set up the site, that happened a lot and so we protected most of the pages so that only sysops could edit them. Then the vandalism stopped for a time and we unprotected most the pages. It seems to occur periodically again - and it only seems to be coming from one person. There probably is some way of stopping it, but I'm not an expert at wikis so I'm unfamiliar with how to stop it. I know the set up for [[Theopedia]] is that only people with user names can edit pages - perhaps that is the best way around the problem. You could talk to [[User:Prab|Prab]] about the problems if you want. --Graham<br /> <br /> ==hello from [[User:Phatcat68]]==<br /> Hello Graham! I saw your message to check out this site and decided to do so. I went ahead and signed up as a user and added some churches that I know of in West Virginia. Thanks for the invitation! I will check out the pages you indicated as time permits! Thanks again! --[[User:Phatcat68|Phatcat68]] 20:59, 29 Sep 2005 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :G'day and welcome Phatcat68. Thanks for adding to the directory of churches. Feel free to create and edit other articles if you want to. A while back we had a lot of trouble with vandalism (and the only way we could stop it and make the vandals go away was to protect all the pages). Hopefully most pages have now been unprotected and if we haven't unprotected them all it is only because of forgetfulness. If you find one that is protected, give me a yell, and I'll unprotect it. --[[User:Graham grove|Graham grove]] 22:28, 29 Sep 2005 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ==hello from [[User:SWD316]]==<br /> Hi there Graham, Im SWD316. I created an account and user page! Thanks for the invintation here! I didn't see it until today. You put it in an archive on my Wikipedia page, coincidentally it was an archive of coversations I had with Phatcat68! Wierd. Anyways thanks for the invite! [[User:SWD316|&lt;font color=&quot;FF0000&quot;&gt;S&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;EE0000&quot;&gt;W&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;DD0000&quot;&gt;D&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;CC0000&quot;&gt;3&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;BB0000&quot;&gt;1&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;AA0000&quot;&gt;6]]&lt;/font&gt; (yes I have a user page; it just looks like a red link!)<br /> <br /> == Invitation to RWiki Yahoo Group ==<br /> <br /> Dear Graham, I'd like to invite you to join the RWiki Yahoo Group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rwiki/. Here's my preliminary description of the group:<br /> :This group is an informal association of administrators of religiously-based wikis. Most of us are using MediaWiki, but administrators of other wiki engines are also invited to join.<br /> We envision this as a low-volume list where administrators of religiously rooted wiki communities can trade tips and ideas, work together to fight spambots and vandals, and so on.<br /> <br /> RWiki is sponsored by OrthodoxWiki (http://www.orthodoxwiki.org). It is open to wikis based in all &quot;recognized&quot; religious communities. This generally does not include NRMs or groups commonly described as &quot;cults.&quot;<br /> <br /> The archives of this list are kept private, and membership is restricted to those who genuinely qualify for this kind of group. Please apply with the name and URL of your wiki, as well as a description of your role in managing it.<br /> <br /> Yours in Christ --John S. (User:FrJohn at http://orthodoxwiki.org)<br /> <br /> == vandalism in general ==<br /> <br /> Hi, I am the creator of the new Bible encyclopedia wiki based in the United States called, [http://wikible.org Wikible]. I noticed that this site is getting hammered all the time with spam. I was just curious what kind of spam protection you are using? I am using the Bad Behavior mediawiki extension at my site. Also, I've noticed this site is using a very old version of MediaWiki. perhaps a upgrade to the latest stable version, 1.5.6 (as of this post), would help curb that somewhat. As you know, spammers will try to use vulnerabilities in software to their advantage, and it would probably help to upgrade. Have a good day, and keep serving the savior! --[[User:Ymmotrojam|Ymmotrojam]] 04:51, 22 Jan 2006 (EST)<br /> <br /> == Shorter URLs ==<br /> Hi there. I recently responded to your [[Talk:Christian wikis#Thoughts from JJ|&quot;open letter&quot;]]. I'm starting to dig a little deeper into WikiChristian; I had been spending most of my time on Wikible.org. May I recommend [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Eliminating_index.php_from_the_url this nifty tip] to help clean up the wikichristian URLs? (I've also added this [[User_talk:Prab#Shorter_URLs|to Prab's talk page]] since he seems to be more technically-oriented.) --[[User:RockOfVictory|J. J.]] 18:21, 26 July 2006 (PDT)<br /> <br /> == Still watching ==<br /> I got your comment on Wikipedia. Even though I'm not spending as much time here, I still check the &quot;Recent changes&quot; page frenquently to get a pulse on what's happening with the wiki. --[[User:RockOfVictory|J. J.]] 10:13, 8 August 2006 (PDT)<br /> <br /> ==Thanks==<br /> <br /> Hey, Graham! Thanks for your support of me being a sysop. I agree with you in that it would be a good thing for admins to have varying beliefs, as long as they all accept Christ as their Lord and Savior. Both you and Tom seem to want me to help out as an admin, yet nobody's promoted me yet; is this because you need permission from Prab first?<br /> <br /> God bless!&lt;br&gt;[[User:P.B. Pilhet|P.B. Pilhet]] / [[User talk:P.B. Pilhet|Talk]] 22:37, 21 October 2006 (EST)<br /> <br /> ==Deletion of C.S. Lewis (overview)==<br /> <br /> Hey, Graham! Sorry if I shouldn't have deleted that page. Do you want me to undelete it, or will you do that, or what? I just figured that, since the overview page was actually ''smaller'' than the main page, it would just be easier to have it all on one page. I thought that if the article ever ''did'' get bigger, then the overview page could simply be created again. Otherwise, with the article as it is, an overview page seems, at least to me, to just take up database space and clutter up the article. But either way I won't delete any more overview pages again, if you guys don't want me to :-)<br /> <br /> God bless!&lt;br&gt;[[User:P.B. Pilhet|P.B. Pilhet]] / [[User talk:P.B. Pilhet|Talk]] 17:09, 22 October 2006 (EST)<br /> <br /> :No problems. That's fine what you did. I think that your approach to delete the page was fine; we can always recreate it later if need be. I'd prefer you not to delete the overview articles, but I know that Tom has a different point of view. You do what you think is best. Keep in mind that there are a lot of different view points in Christianity, and at least the system with overviews allows for people to contribute either to the overview, or alternatively to create opinion style articles. --[[User:Graham grove|Graham grove]] 17:12, 22 October 2006 (EST)<br /> <br /> ::Okay, Graham! I don't really like the overview system, but I'll leave it alone to be on the safe side.<br /> <br /> ::God bless,&lt;br&gt;[[User:P.B. Pilhet|P.B. Pilhet]] / [[User talk:P.B. Pilhet|Talk]] 17:17, 22 October 2006 (EST)<br /> <br /> == Vandalism ==<br /> <br /> Hey Graham. I don't mind the accidental block :-)<br /> <br /> It seems to be pretty simple to change move permissions. Whoever has access to the server will have a file called LocalSettings.php. In that file, there's a section that looks like this:<br /> <br /> &lt;code&gt;$wgGroupPermissions['*' ]['createaccount'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['*' ]['read'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['*' ]['edit'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['*' ]['createpage'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['*' ]['createtalk'] = true;&lt;/code&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br /> <br /> '''&lt;code&gt;$wgGroupPermissions['user' ]['move'] = true;&lt;/code&gt;'''&lt;br&gt;<br /> &lt;code&gt;$wgGroupPermissions['user' ]['read'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['user' ]['edit'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['user' ]['createpage'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['user' ]['createtalk'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['user' ]['upload'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['user' ]['reupload'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['user' ]['reupload-shared'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['user' ]['minoredit'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> <br /> $wgGroupPermissions['autoconfirmed']['autoconfirmed'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> <br /> $wgGroupPermissions['bot' ]['bot'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['bot' ]['autoconfirmed'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> <br /> $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['block'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['createaccount'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['delete'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['deletedhistory'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['editinterface'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['import'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['importupload'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['move'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['patrol'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['protect'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['rollback'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['upload'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['reupload'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['reupload-shared'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['unwatchedpages'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['autoconfirmed'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> <br /> $wgGroupPermissions['bureaucrat']['userrights'] = true;&lt;/code&gt;<br /> <br /> <br /> I assume Prab is the only one with access to the server, so he just needs to change the bolded line from &lt;code&gt;= true;&lt;/code&gt; to &lt;code&gt;= false;&lt;/code&gt;. Since a lot of the vandalism is coming from the same people (I think), we might also want to install the [http://wiki.evernex.com/index.php?title=Installing_CheckUser Check User] special extension, which will allow us to see which IP addresses an editor is using, so we can effectively ban him/her. -- [[User:P.B. Pilhet|P.B. Pilhet]] / [[User talk:P.B. Pilhet|Talk]] 13:43, 29 November 2006 (EST)<br /> <br /> :done :-) --[[User:Ymmotrojam|Tom]] 15:48, 29 November 2006 (EST)<br /> <br /> ::I noticed that you blocked Dan McQueen. Just thought I'd tell you that I had already blocked him earlier :-) [[User:P.B. Pilhet|P.B. Pilhet]] / [[User talk:P.B. Pilhet|Talk]] 17:13, 29 November 2006 (EST)</div> Ymmotrojam http://www.wikichristian.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=User_talk:Prab&diff=143176 User talk:Prab 2006-12-12T23:33:13Z <p>Ymmotrojam: Reverted edits by Joe 2 (Talk); changed back to last version by P.B. Pilhet</p> <hr /> <div>I had some spare time and the inclination today to do some editing. :) Is there any way you are able to remove the error from the .htm files that are being used as a source for those pages? The error with the mispelled ''Mathew'' exist in these files too, so in their current state they are going to be adding to the workload in terms of editing out the spelling error before pasting the content into the articles. This is more of a 'spurt' of activity for me, so there is no real rush for any of this to occur. --[[User:Mustaphile|Mustaphile]] 18:23, 20 April 2006 (EDT)<br /> <br /> Hi Mustaphile,<br /> <br /> Yes, it is possible to search replace. I went ahead and changed it in all the pages along with some other changes that may help. However, there may still be a few things such as removing the space below Mathew Henry link etc. to make it appear the way we want may still have to be done manually. I will keep trying to see if we could do that in an easier way. I uploaded the new updated files. <br /> <br /> [[User:Prab|Prab]]<br /> <br /> ==I've noticed something strange==<br /> The Talk:Main Page was moved by Willy on Wheels and then moved back and then it shows me as moving Talk:Main Page to Bitch. I never visited the page on the 11th of May, nor did I move the Talk:Main Page, so I'm curious how the edit history comes to show me as making the move. It's a mystery. I thought perhaps someone might have cracked my account, but my password is definitely not a weak password. It's most disconcerting.<br /> <br /> # (cur) (last) 03:04, 11 May 2006 MustaphiIe m (Talk:Main Page moved to Bitch)<br /> # (cur) (last) 18:58, 19 April 2006 Muser m (Talk:Main Page on Wheels moved to Talk:Main Page)<br /> # (cur) (last) 03:47, 19 April 2006 Willy on Wheels m (Talk:Main Page moved to Talk:Main Page on<br /> <br /> -edit-<br /> <br /> Ah I see now. I think it is someone who has signed up with my name but is using a capital 'I' for Idiot, instead of an lower case 'l' for larry. I noticed this as I was editing this message. :)<br /> --[[User:Mustaphile|Mustaphile]] 02:17, 12 May 2006 (PDT)<br /> <br /> == Thanks ==<br /> <br /> Thanks for sorting out the Birmingham page i was really tired so i went to bed before finishing it... I live in Birmingham so if you think of anything that you cannot find out easily that i could ask the archbishop myself or somehting else jsut say :-)<br /> <br /> God bless<br /> Anton.<br /> <br /> == Happy to Help ==<br /> <br /> I am happy to help in this worthy project. I would sure think of you when I am in Birmingham and you are welcome to visit us when in Philadelphia. God Bless.<br /> <br /> --[[User:Prab|Prab]] 15:39, 15 May 2006 (PDT)<br /> <br /> ==Added new sysop==<br /> I've added user Ymmotrojam to the list of sysops. I assume thats ok to do. --[[User:Mustaphile|Mustaphile]] 22:50, 19 May 2006 (PDT)<br /> <br /> == user permissions ==<br /> <br /> Prab, just thought I'd make note of the conversation on [[Talk:Main Page]] about restricting the ability to move pages to only sysops and higher. --[[User:Ymmotrojam|Tom]] 23:07, 19 May 2006 (PDT)<br /> :I'd be supportive of this restriction. The latest vandalism would be resolved quite effectively with this one measure. --[[User:Mustaphile|Mustaphile]] 01:39, 1 June 2006 (PDT)<br /> <br /> ::As a fellow wiki admin, I'd almost want to make wikichristian over again from scratch, starting off with the latest version of mediawiki, and the latest spam protection measures... I can't imagine how junked up the database must be with all the spam it has gotten, and I'm not entirely surprised that the site has had corruption errors in the past. You could even save the 'user' table in the database so that people don't have to re-register. That's just me though... {{smile}} --[[User:Ymmotrojam|Tom]] 02:08, 1 June 2006 (PDT)<br /> <br /> :: I agree that we should restrict the ability of the users to move the pages. The mediawiki version we are using is pretty recent and we do use spam protection measures such as wordpress. However, it is a constant process and we will have to keep upto date with the latest antispam features. <br /> <br /> --[[User:Prab|Prab]] 03:05, 14 June 2006 (PDT)<br /> <br /> :::I've been distracted for a couple of weeks now, as I am on vacation in the U.S.. I've popped back in to see how things are going and the 'move pages' problem is still there. I don't have the time to go through it all in detail at the moment, so I hope someone else can pick up the slack and fix the latest vandalism. I'll be more active when I get back from my vacation. --[[User:Mustaphile|Mustaphile]] 20:14, 23 June 2006 (PDT)<br /> <br /> Hi Mustaphile,<br /> <br /> I am wondering if you know how to restrict the move. I know it could be done and there must be a wikipedia page somewhere detailing the process. Please let me know if you find it. <br /> <br /> --[[User:Prab|Prab]] 06:20, 2 July 2006 (PDT)<br /> :Checkout the Main Talk page. It'll say there how to do it. --[[User:Ymmotrojam|Tom]] 16:58, 13 July 2006 (PDT)<br /> <br /> Thanks Tom, I went ahead and changed the settings so that the move is restricted. --[[User:Prab|Prab]] 20:32, 13 July 2006 (PDT)<br /> <br /> == username blacklist ==<br /> <br /> I would highly recommend that you install the [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Username_Blacklist username blacklist] extension and the user creation log etension. Sorry, can't remember where I got the latter from, just google it. The user creation log shows in Special:Recentchanges when someone registers, and the username blacklist can help stop repeat spammers from registring that use a certain pattern in their username. --[[User:Ymmotrojam|Tom]] 07:57, 15 July 2006 (PDT)<br /> <br /> == Shorter URLs ==<br /> <br /> I've made this same [[Talk:Graham_Llewellyn_Grove#Shorter URLs|comment over at Graham's talk page]], but I just realized that you're probably the more technically-able person to suggest this to: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Eliminating_index.php_from_the_url --[[User:RockOfVictory|J. 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I just recently found this Wiki a few minutes ago, and it looks pretty cool! I've just started working on the this other [http://christianity.wikia.com/wiki/Welcome Christian Wiki] a few days ago, and there was a link there to this one. I noticed you guys have over forty thousand articles, with many new ones coming in day after day. That's more than the other website can say, that's for sure. I also noticed that you have only 12 admins currently, so I'd like to volunteer to help out and become number 13. I'm a major contributer to Wikipedia (I've only been there two months, but I have over 1,000 edits), and I'll really put in some effort here as well. I have a lot of free time during the day (since I'm homeschooled), so I could be around a lot. Being a sysop would help me contribute more here (by clearing up vandals and vandalism, and by editing protected pages that need some cleanup). Although I'm not an admin on Wikipedia, I can assure you I know all about policy and what admins do. I'm a very trustworthy Christian (Non-Denominational Protestant); if you need proof of it, just see my [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:P.B._Pilhet Wikipedia userpage]. I know I don't have much edits here yet, but that will soon change!<br /> <br /> Sincerely,&lt;br&gt;[[User:P.B. Pilhet|P.B. Pilhet]] / [[User talk:P.B. Pilhet|Talk]] 10:44, 21 October 2006 (EST)<br /> <br /> :The only thing that I disagree with on your [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:P.B._Pilhet&amp;oldid=82522850 Wikipedia user page] is the userbox that says that Evolution and Christianity don't have to conflict. Now that may be very true of modern Christianity, but that does not reflect the Bible. Other than that, I don't have a problem with you being a sysop. I would make a note though that right now WikiChristian's statistics are very misleading. It has many articles, but most are not categorized and there are thousands of very small articles that only contain verses. Checkout this discussion here about it: [[Wikichristian:Village pump#statistics are misleading]] --[[User:Ymmotrojam|Tom]] 14:43, 21 October 2006 (EST)<br /> <br /> ::Thanks for your support on my sysop request. Just to be clear, I ''don't'' believe in Evolution. I just don't discount its possibilty, that's all. I noticed that you requested adminship on the Christianity Knowledge Base wiki; so have I. Actually, I set up the entire &quot;Requests for Adminship&quot; page there, and mered yours and my nomination to it. You currently have two support votes (one from me and the other from Archola, the site's bureaucrat), and no oppose or neutral votes. I don't have any votes as of yet, and I'd really appreciate your support for me over there, too. Thanks again!<br /> <br /> ::God bless,&lt;br&gt;[[User:P.B. Pilhet|P.B. Pilhet]] / [[User talk:P.B. Pilhet|Talk]] 16:50, 21 October 2006 (EST)<br /> <br /> :::Regarding the issue of evolution. I think we should be happy to let there be differences of opinion regarding this. Just so long as people believe that Christ is their personal saviour, then the rest, although important, is not essential. Plenty of Christians believe that the Genesis account isn't literally 7 days, but that each day refers to a long period of time - in fact, this is by far the majority view of Christians in Australia - things might be different in America. So I think so long as people have accepted Jesus as their Lord who saved them from their sin, then we should be happy to accept varying beliefs for other issues in sysops. --[[User:Graham grove|Graham grove]] 22:18, 21 October 2006 (EST)<br /> <br /> ::::Hey, Graham! Thanks for your support of me being a sysop. I agree with you in that it would be a good thing for admins to have varying beliefs, as long as they all accept Christ as their Lord and Savior. Both you and Tom seem to want me to help out as an admin, yet nobody's promoted me yet; is this because you need permission from Prab first?<br /> <br /> ::::God bless!&lt;br&gt;[[User:P.B. Pilhet|P.B. Pilhet]] / [[User talk:P.B. Pilhet|Talk]] 22:39, 21 October 2006 (EST)<br /> <br /> ::::: Prab is indeed the boss of the site. He's a fantastic guy, who is very easy going and laid back and so I'm sure he'd be happy to have you as a sysop. Good luck. I look forward to you helping out, in particular, creating new content to help the site grow is size and usefulness - take a look at the [[Wikichristian:Priority Pages]].<br /> <br /> ::::::Thanks for the sysop access, Graham. I'll go through that list and see what I can do. I've already done a few things; some spelling and grammar fixes, and a couple of merges. I think I'll try and create some templates, too. Is there a welcome template in place? -- [[User:P.B. Pilhet|P.B. Pilhet]] / [[User talk:P.B. Pilhet|Talk]] 11:29, 22 October 2006 (EST)<br /> <br /> ::::::: Thanks guys for the compliments but please let me make it clear that I am but one of the contributors/admins and I do not see myself as the boss! We are happy to have a great community here at wikichristian even though none of us meat each other physically! And let me welcome [[User:P.B. Pilhet|P.B. Pilhet]] to the wikichristian community. --[[User:Prab|Prab]] 20:27, 26 October 2006 (EST)<br /> <br /> ::::::::Thanks for the welcome, Prab! By the way, [[User:Jesusfreakdotcom|Jesusfreakdotcom]] recommended that we switch our server to GoDaddy.com. What do you think? -- [[User:P.B. Pilhet|P.B. Pilhet]] / [[User talk:P.B. Pilhet|Talk]] 21:00, 26 October 2006 (EST)</div> Ymmotrojam http://www.wikichristian.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=User_talk:Mustaphile&diff=143175 User talk:Mustaphile 2006-12-12T23:32:46Z <p>Ymmotrojam: Reverted edits by Joe 2 (Talk); changed back to last version by P.B. Pilhet</p> <hr /> <div>I just have to put something in here, as the red link is driving me crazy. :) --[[User:Mustaphile|Mustaphile]] 02:19, 5 May 2005 (PDT)<br /> <br /> ----<br /> <br /> Hi Mustaphile,<br /> <br /> I like the ideas you bring in to the wiki and I think the tutorials are really great. You seem to be well versed with [[wiki]'s as you use templates and formatting rules that the average user may not be able to use. We would like to have you as one of the sysops and would like to welcome you to the community of wikichristian sysops.<br /> <br /> [[User:Prab|Prab]] 19:50, 6 May 2005 (EST)<br /> <br /> Hi Mustaphile,<br /> <br /> I appreciate the work you do and the quality and leadership you bring to the wikichristian project. I am sorry for the spelling mistake in the name Mathew in Mathew Henry Bible Commentary. The good news is that I can fix the problem by search replacing it in the frontpage web by a simple mouse click in all the pages and reupload the files. I will go ahead and do it in a day or two. Thank you and God bless.<br /> <br /> [[User:Prab|Prab]]<br /> <br /> == sysop request ==<br /> <br /> I noted this on my talk page as well, but would it be possible for me to be a sysop? I'd like to help fight this vandalism... and do other admin stuff... :-) --[[User:Ymmotrojam|Tom]] 22:39, 19 May 2006 (PDT)<br /> <br /> == &quot;from orthodoxwiki&quot; ==<br /> <br /> I found it rather interesting that recent spammers are putting a &quot;from orthodoxwiki&quot; after their spam. It's almost as though they trying to make both wikis look bad at the same time... hmm.. --[[User:Ymmotrojam|Tom]] 17:46, 21 May 2006 (PDT)<br /> <br /> ==Welcome back==<br /> <br /> Hi. Hope you had a good time in the U.S. What were you over there for? Business or fun? --[[User:Graham grove|Graham grove]] 06:27, 29 September 2006 (EST)<br /> <br /> == Hey Mustaphile! ==<br /> <br /> I'm relatively new here, so I just wanted to make your acquaintance. My real name is Justin Matas (I just use P.B. Pilhet as an alias). I saw that you once blocked someone named &quot;Willy on Wheels.&quot; Do you have any idea how infamous this guy is on Wikipedia?! -- [[User:P.B. Pilhet|P.B. Pilhet]] / [[User talk:P.B. Pilhet|Talk]] 22:54, 23 October 2006 (EST)</div> Ymmotrojam http://www.wikichristian.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=User_talk:Graham_grove/Archive_1&diff=143174 User talk:Graham grove/Archive 1 2006-12-12T23:32:39Z <p>Ymmotrojam: Reverted edits by Joe 2 (Talk); changed back to last version by Ymmotrojam</p> <hr /> <div>Hi Graham, How are you? I am wondering if we should try to change our domain name to WikiChristian.org and forward the wikichristian.com to that domain since it makes more sense since we want to keep it a non-commercial project. We can also consider registering a [[not for profit organization]] as we grow. Please share your thoughts on this. We already have both the domains with us. Thanks. -Prab<br /> <br /> :Hi Prab, Sure. I don't really know what the difference between .com and .org is - but if you think there is a good reason for the change, go for it. --Graham<br /> <br /> Hi Graham. I'm glad you're working here. This idea of a Christian wiki has a lot of potential. --[[User:DavidCary|DavidCary]] 22:15, 8 Mar 2005 (PST)<br /> <br /> :Thanks David --Graham<br /> <br /> ::''You're welcome. Yes, I would like to [http://theconnexion.net/compass/index.php/User_talk:DavidCary contribute]. I'm glad WikiChristian and the Compass wiki are [http://theconnexion.net/compass/index.php/User_talk:WikiSysop getting along so well]. --[[User:DavidCary|DavidCary]] 18:00, 22 Mar 2005 (PST)''<br /> <br /> Hi Graham, Thank you for the wonderful work you are doing with all the lyrics. In order to better organize the information in the wiki, it is a good idea to categorize the pages so that the system automatically creates alphabetical lists. All we have to do is to type &lt;nowiki&gt;[[Category:type]]&lt;/nowiki&gt; at the bottom of the page. For example, the songs category pages should have &lt;nowiki&gt;[[category:songs]]&lt;/nowiki&gt;. Also, there are some dead end pages that do not have any link and the best way to avoid creating dead end pages is by categories and templates. To create a new template, just type &lt;nowiki&gt;{{template name}}&lt;/nowiki&gt; and edit the template page with the link created. Thanks for the understanding. --[[User:Prab]]<br /> <br /> :Hi Prab, Yep - it's a good idea to use templates and categories. Makes sense to me. However, I still like to have the index and contents pages under the control of the users rather than at the mercy of an automated system. Thanks --Graham <br /> <br /> Hi Graham, Thanks for the message in my user page. I think we can do both. Actually, the system does a good job in organizing the info alphabetically but giving the control to the users as well makes sense and we will continue both. Thanks. -Prab<br /> <br /> Hello, Graham. Thank you for the warm welcome to WikiChristian. As a United Methodist, I suspect I'll be making lots of Wesleyan-type edits but hope to add significantly to the encyclopedia in a number of categories. Good to be a part of the community! Shalom! [[User:KHM03|KHM03]] 15:05, 22 Mar 2005 (PST)<br /> <br /> ==Song Styleguide==<br /> I'd like to draw your attention to this talk page, Graham, [[WikiChristian talk:Song styleguide]]. I've made a pretty signigicant change to the titles of the songs and lyrics and hope to promote a single style for the titles. --[[User:Mustaphile|Mustaphile]] 11:06, 8 May 2005 (PDT)<br /> <br /> ==found your picture==<br /> Found your picture on your website<br /> <br /> Good to put a face to the name. {{smile}} --[[User:Mustaphile|Mustaphile]] 20:57, 22 May 2005 (PDT)<br /> <br /> ==writing in first person==<br /> Hi Graham (my name also happens to be Graham), I was just reading through some of the articles and I notice that frequently in the articles you write you use first person voice liberally. Not that I object to this in general, it's definitely a great tool for communicating Christian truth. However, since this is an Encyclopedia, perhaps we should consider using a more objective (third person) voice as much as possible? In articles and opinions, of course, first person is entirely acceptable. But in the more historical and factual entries, I wonder whether the first person voice comes off as scholarly or merely as &quot;preachy,&quot; thus turning off potential believers and causing WikiChristian to be viewed as &quot;just another evangelist website.&quot; Again, not that I object to your writing style in general, I think you're doing a great thing by devoting so much of your time to this project! [[User:Avertist|Avertist]] 09:07, 23 Apr 2005 (PDT)<br /> <br /> :Hi Avertis. I've really enjoyed learning from your articles. You're doing a great job.<br /> :It's quite true that I do write opinions often. I try to make it clear that it is an opinion - which is why I write my name next to the article - so that a user can skip stuff I write if they don't want to read opinions, or so they can click on my name and read my background and understand my biases. You're also right in saying that using the first person doesn't always come off as scholarly. But when discussing Christianity, does it always have to be scholarly? Can experience or a testimony or even just a gut feeling be as worthwhile?<br /> :I guess I disagree with you on one point. You say that this is an Encyclopedia. My hope is that this is not only an encyclopedia - if it were only an encyclopedia then why not just write in Wikipedia? I hope this is a place where people can write their views and opinions including their understanding of history. The way I am going to write about about the Reformation is probably going to be quite different than the way a Roman Catholic would write about the Reformation, or again different from the way an atheist would write about it. Although there are historical facts involved, I think there will usually be a slant in one direction or another. I think it is best to allow multiple articles on the history of the reformation (or any other topic). Perhaps there should be the main article that is dry and factual only, but I think it is fine also for there to be lots of other articles which tend to have a slant in one way or another. Sometimes that will be &quot;preachy&quot; but hopefully at least it will be open for dialogue, discussion and rebuttal. I also don't think making this a purely factual Encyclopedia is likely to help brng people to Christ. Maybe I'm wrong - I'd be interested to know if anyone has been significantly drawn to Jesus by looking up information about Christianity on wikipedia.<br /> :If you look at the [[baptism]] page you'll see that I've written an article there which is clearly my own opinion. Obviously there will be people who have different opinions on this topic. I think it would be great if other people add links for new articles where they can explain their alternate views. Even the writer of Easton's Bible Dictionary is pretty biased (and this is supposed to be a dictionary which I would imagine shouldn't be biased). If you read [[Bible Dictionary: Baptism]] you'll see that there is clearly a particular point being pushed.<br /> :What you say is important though. I shouldn't be writing things that turn people away from Christ - I guess what I want to do is write things that say what I believe and challenge people to think about what they believe - be it the same or different from my belief. Sometimes I fail at that task. If you let me know which comments I make in which articles that are specifically preachy and that you think would really offend people, let me know and I'll try and fix them up. Your brother in Christ, --Graham Grove<br /> <br /> ::Hi Graham, I worry that I may have overstated the problem in my first post. In the vast majority of your articles I don't see anything to worry about. But take, for instance, in the conclusion section of [[An overview of the main denominations and the history of the Christian Church (By G.G.)]]. The rest of the article is mostly factual, but the conclusion is definitely composed mostly of opinion. It's an opinion I share completely, so I'm not objecting to the content of it, but it seems to me that the best place for that section would be in a separate article discussing your opinion on the unity of the Church, etc. And though it does not sound particularly preachy to me, I can almost guarantee you that some of my atheist/agnostic friends would read it as trying to &quot;explain away&quot; the &quot;fact&quot; that Christianity just &quot;can't figure itself out,&quot; or something to that effect. Would minor reorganizations like this actually convert them? Probably not, but it would remove that small objection they may have.<br /> ::I completely agree that Wikichristian should be much more than a dry encyclopedia; my concern is that the division between fact and opinion might become blurred if we are not careful about this. [[User:Avertist|Avertist]] 00:26, 24 Apr 2005 (PDT)<br /> <br /> :::Thanks Avertis. I think you were quite right - that was out of place in an article that probably should have remained neutral and factual. I've moved my conclusion into a separate article. Thanks for the advice. --Graham Grove, 24 April<br /> <br /> ::Hi Graham, I'm glad we agreed on this :). On a semi-related note, I thought more about what you said about wikipedia being the place for a &quot;dry encyclopedia&quot; and I thought that perhaps just to save time and effort, we could import articles en masse to wikichristian on historical and factual matters. Since wikipedia articles are generally pretty reliable, this way we'll be able to concentrate more of our efforts on dialogue and writing opinion articles (which I agree should be the core of wikichristian). Since you're one of the &quot;main guys&quot; here, I figured I'd ask your thoughts before I started doing it a bunch. But just so you can get an idea of what I mean, I imported the [[Arianism]] article from wikipedia on top of my old entry. As helpful as it is to me to write up my own short explanations of things, I think this would probably be more efficient and beneficial to wikichristian as a whole. I'm interested to know your thoughts. [[User:Avertist|Avertist]] 09:39, 24 Apr 2005 (PDT)<br /> <br /> :::G'day Avertist. Go for it, transfer any articles you think a worth transferring. I've noticed sometimes that I've got to have my thinking hat on when reading articles from Wikipedia. For instance, in the article on Christianity, it has a list of famous Christians, one of whom is Joseph Smith. He's the founder of the Mormon religion, so I don't think it is accurate to say he is a famous Christian. Certainly he was a very influential man and a famous religious leader who has had a major impact in history, but I think most Christians would agree that he should be left off a list of famous Christians. In general though, like you've suggested, Wikipedia is pretty reliable and thorough, so go for it and transfer away. {{unsigned|Graham grove}}<br /> <br /> ==vandalism==<br /> I have noticed that you have some users who are constantly editing the articles to say nasty things. They switch words, screw up spelling so that links do not work, and seem to be somewhat of an annoyance. Is there any way to stop this? It may be that this is the downside to a website like this where users can freely edit each other's work. [[User:JordanBarrett|JordanBarrett]] 13:42, 28 July 2005 (PDT)<br /> <br /> :Yep, that tends to happen a lot. When Prab initially set up the site, that happened a lot and so we protected most of the pages so that only sysops could edit them. Then the vandalism stopped for a time and we unprotected most the pages. It seems to occur periodically again - and it only seems to be coming from one person. There probably is some way of stopping it, but I'm not an expert at wikis so I'm unfamiliar with how to stop it. I know the set up for [[Theopedia]] is that only people with user names can edit pages - perhaps that is the best way around the problem. You could talk to [[User:Prab|Prab]] about the problems if you want. --Graham<br /> <br /> ==hello from [[User:Phatcat68]]==<br /> Hello Graham! I saw your message to check out this site and decided to do so. I went ahead and signed up as a user and added some churches that I know of in West Virginia. Thanks for the invitation! I will check out the pages you indicated as time permits! Thanks again! --[[User:Phatcat68|Phatcat68]] 20:59, 29 Sep 2005 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :G'day and welcome Phatcat68. Thanks for adding to the directory of churches. Feel free to create and edit other articles if you want to. A while back we had a lot of trouble with vandalism (and the only way we could stop it and make the vandals go away was to protect all the pages). Hopefully most pages have now been unprotected and if we haven't unprotected them all it is only because of forgetfulness. If you find one that is protected, give me a yell, and I'll unprotect it. --[[User:Graham grove|Graham grove]] 22:28, 29 Sep 2005 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ==hello from [[User:SWD316]]==<br /> Hi there Graham, Im SWD316. I created an account and user page! Thanks for the invintation here! I didn't see it until today. You put it in an archive on my Wikipedia page, coincidentally it was an archive of coversations I had with Phatcat68! Wierd. Anyways thanks for the invite! [[User:SWD316|&lt;font color=&quot;FF0000&quot;&gt;S&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;EE0000&quot;&gt;W&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;DD0000&quot;&gt;D&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;CC0000&quot;&gt;3&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;BB0000&quot;&gt;1&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;AA0000&quot;&gt;6]]&lt;/font&gt; (yes I have a user page; it just looks like a red link!)<br /> <br /> == Invitation to RWiki Yahoo Group ==<br /> <br /> Dear Graham, I'd like to invite you to join the RWiki Yahoo Group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rwiki/. Here's my preliminary description of the group:<br /> :This group is an informal association of administrators of religiously-based wikis. Most of us are using MediaWiki, but administrators of other wiki engines are also invited to join.<br /> We envision this as a low-volume list where administrators of religiously rooted wiki communities can trade tips and ideas, work together to fight spambots and vandals, and so on.<br /> <br /> RWiki is sponsored by OrthodoxWiki (http://www.orthodoxwiki.org). It is open to wikis based in all &quot;recognized&quot; religious communities. This generally does not include NRMs or groups commonly described as &quot;cults.&quot;<br /> <br /> The archives of this list are kept private, and membership is restricted to those who genuinely qualify for this kind of group. Please apply with the name and URL of your wiki, as well as a description of your role in managing it.<br /> <br /> Yours in Christ --John S. (User:FrJohn at http://orthodoxwiki.org)<br /> <br /> == vandalism in general ==<br /> <br /> Hi, I am the creator of the new Bible encyclopedia wiki based in the United States called, [http://wikible.org Wikible]. I noticed that this site is getting hammered all the time with spam. I was just curious what kind of spam protection you are using? I am using the Bad Behavior mediawiki extension at my site. Also, I've noticed this site is using a very old version of MediaWiki. perhaps a upgrade to the latest stable version, 1.5.6 (as of this post), would help curb that somewhat. As you know, spammers will try to use vulnerabilities in software to their advantage, and it would probably help to upgrade. Have a good day, and keep serving the savior! --[[User:Ymmotrojam|Ymmotrojam]] 04:51, 22 Jan 2006 (EST)<br /> <br /> == Shorter URLs ==<br /> Hi there. I recently responded to your [[Talk:Christian wikis#Thoughts from JJ|&quot;open letter&quot;]]. I'm starting to dig a little deeper into WikiChristian; I had been spending most of my time on Wikible.org. May I recommend [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Eliminating_index.php_from_the_url this nifty tip] to help clean up the wikichristian URLs? (I've also added this [[User_talk:Prab#Shorter_URLs|to Prab's talk page]] since he seems to be more technically-oriented.) --[[User:RockOfVictory|J. J.]] 18:21, 26 July 2006 (PDT)<br /> <br /> == Still watching ==<br /> I got your comment on Wikipedia. Even though I'm not spending as much time here, I still check the &quot;Recent changes&quot; page frenquently to get a pulse on what's happening with the wiki. --[[User:RockOfVictory|J. J.]] 10:13, 8 August 2006 (PDT)<br /> <br /> ==Thanks==<br /> <br /> Hey, Graham! Thanks for your support of me being a sysop. I agree with you in that it would be a good thing for admins to have varying beliefs, as long as they all accept Christ as their Lord and Savior. Both you and Tom seem to want me to help out as an admin, yet nobody's promoted me yet; is this because you need permission from Prab first?<br /> <br /> God bless!&lt;br&gt;[[User:P.B. Pilhet|P.B. Pilhet]] / [[User talk:P.B. Pilhet|Talk]] 22:37, 21 October 2006 (EST)<br /> <br /> ==Deletion of C.S. Lewis (overview)==<br /> <br /> Hey, Graham! Sorry if I shouldn't have deleted that page. Do you want me to undelete it, or will you do that, or what? I just figured that, since the overview page was actually ''smaller'' than the main page, it would just be easier to have it all on one page. I thought that if the article ever ''did'' get bigger, then the overview page could simply be created again. Otherwise, with the article as it is, an overview page seems, at least to me, to just take up database space and clutter up the article. But either way I won't delete any more overview pages again, if you guys don't want me to :-)<br /> <br /> God bless!&lt;br&gt;[[User:P.B. Pilhet|P.B. Pilhet]] / [[User talk:P.B. Pilhet|Talk]] 17:09, 22 October 2006 (EST)<br /> <br /> :No problems. That's fine what you did. I think that your approach to delete the page was fine; we can always recreate it later if need be. I'd prefer you not to delete the overview articles, but I know that Tom has a different point of view. You do what you think is best. Keep in mind that there are a lot of different view points in Christianity, and at least the system with overviews allows for people to contribute either to the overview, or alternatively to create opinion style articles. --[[User:Graham grove|Graham grove]] 17:12, 22 October 2006 (EST)<br /> <br /> ::Okay, Graham! I don't really like the overview system, but I'll leave it alone to be on the safe side.<br /> <br /> ::God bless,&lt;br&gt;[[User:P.B. Pilhet|P.B. Pilhet]] / [[User talk:P.B. Pilhet|Talk]] 17:17, 22 October 2006 (EST)<br /> <br /> == Vandalism ==<br /> <br /> Hey Graham. I don't mind the accidental block :-)<br /> <br /> It seems to be pretty simple to change move permissions. Whoever has access to the server will have a file called LocalSettings.php. In that file, there's a section that looks like this:<br /> <br /> &lt;code&gt;$wgGroupPermissions['*' ]['createaccount'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['*' ]['read'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['*' ]['edit'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['*' ]['createpage'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['*' ]['createtalk'] = true;&lt;/code&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br /> <br /> '''&lt;code&gt;$wgGroupPermissions['user' ]['move'] = true;&lt;/code&gt;'''&lt;br&gt;<br /> &lt;code&gt;$wgGroupPermissions['user' ]['read'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['user' ]['edit'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['user' ]['createpage'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['user' ]['createtalk'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['user' ]['upload'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['user' ]['reupload'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['user' ]['reupload-shared'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['user' ]['minoredit'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> <br /> $wgGroupPermissions['autoconfirmed']['autoconfirmed'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> <br /> $wgGroupPermissions['bot' ]['bot'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['bot' ]['autoconfirmed'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> <br /> $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['block'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['createaccount'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['delete'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['deletedhistory'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['editinterface'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['import'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['importupload'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['move'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['patrol'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['protect'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['rollback'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['upload'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['reupload'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['reupload-shared'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['unwatchedpages'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['autoconfirmed'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> <br /> $wgGroupPermissions['bureaucrat']['userrights'] = true;&lt;/code&gt;<br /> <br /> <br /> I assume Prab is the only one with access to the server, so he just needs to change the bolded line from &lt;code&gt;= true;&lt;/code&gt; to &lt;code&gt;= false;&lt;/code&gt;. Since a lot of the vandalism is coming from the same people (I think), we might also want to install the [http://wiki.evernex.com/index.php?title=Installing_CheckUser Check User] special extension, which will allow us to see which IP addresses an editor is using, so we can effectively ban him/her. -- [[User:P.B. Pilhet|P.B. Pilhet]] / [[User talk:P.B. Pilhet|Talk]] 13:43, 29 November 2006 (EST)<br /> <br /> :done :-) --[[User:Ymmotrojam|Tom]] 15:48, 29 November 2006 (EST)<br /> <br /> ::I noticed that you blocked Dan McQueen. Just thought I'd tell you that I had already blocked him earlier :-) [[User:P.B. Pilhet|P.B. Pilhet]] / [[User talk:P.B. Pilhet|Talk]] 17:13, 29 November 2006 (EST)</div> Ymmotrojam http://www.wikichristian.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=User_talk:Graham_grove/Archive_1&diff=143121 User talk:Graham grove/Archive 1 2006-12-11T15:22:08Z <p>Ymmotrojam: Reverted edits by Graham Grøve (Talk); changed back to last version by Graham grove</p> <hr /> <div>Hi Graham, How are you? I am wondering if we should try to change our domain name to WikiChristian.org and forward the wikichristian.com to that domain since it makes more sense since we want to keep it a non-commercial project. We can also consider registering a [[not for profit organization]] as we grow. Please share your thoughts on this. We already have both the domains with us. Thanks. -Prab<br /> <br /> :Hi Prab, Sure. I don't really know what the difference between .com and .org is - but if you think there is a good reason for the change, go for it. --Graham<br /> <br /> Hi Graham. I'm glad you're working here. This idea of a Christian wiki has a lot of potential. --[[User:DavidCary|DavidCary]] 22:15, 8 Mar 2005 (PST)<br /> <br /> :Thanks David --Graham<br /> <br /> ::''You're welcome. Yes, I would like to [http://theconnexion.net/compass/index.php/User_talk:DavidCary contribute]. I'm glad WikiChristian and the Compass wiki are [http://theconnexion.net/compass/index.php/User_talk:WikiSysop getting along so well]. --[[User:DavidCary|DavidCary]] 18:00, 22 Mar 2005 (PST)''<br /> <br /> Hi Graham, Thank you for the wonderful work you are doing with all the lyrics. In order to better organize the information in the wiki, it is a good idea to categorize the pages so that the system automatically creates alphabetical lists. All we have to do is to type &lt;nowiki&gt;[[Category:type]]&lt;/nowiki&gt; at the bottom of the page. For example, the songs category pages should have &lt;nowiki&gt;[[category:songs]]&lt;/nowiki&gt;. Also, there are some dead end pages that do not have any link and the best way to avoid creating dead end pages is by categories and templates. To create a new template, just type &lt;nowiki&gt;{{template name}}&lt;/nowiki&gt; and edit the template page with the link created. Thanks for the understanding. --[[User:Prab]]<br /> <br /> :Hi Prab, Yep - it's a good idea to use templates and categories. Makes sense to me. However, I still like to have the index and contents pages under the control of the users rather than at the mercy of an automated system. Thanks --Graham <br /> <br /> Hi Graham, Thanks for the message in my user page. I think we can do both. Actually, the system does a good job in organizing the info alphabetically but giving the control to the users as well makes sense and we will continue both. Thanks. -Prab<br /> <br /> Hello, Graham. Thank you for the warm welcome to WikiChristian. As a United Methodist, I suspect I'll be making lots of Wesleyan-type edits but hope to add significantly to the encyclopedia in a number of categories. Good to be a part of the community! Shalom! [[User:KHM03|KHM03]] 15:05, 22 Mar 2005 (PST)<br /> <br /> ==Song Styleguide==<br /> I'd like to draw your attention to this talk page, Graham, [[WikiChristian talk:Song styleguide]]. I've made a pretty signigicant change to the titles of the songs and lyrics and hope to promote a single style for the titles. --[[User:Mustaphile|Mustaphile]] 11:06, 8 May 2005 (PDT)<br /> <br /> ==found your picture==<br /> Found your picture on your website<br /> <br /> Good to put a face to the name. {{smile}} --[[User:Mustaphile|Mustaphile]] 20:57, 22 May 2005 (PDT)<br /> <br /> ==writing in first person==<br /> Hi Graham (my name also happens to be Graham), I was just reading through some of the articles and I notice that frequently in the articles you write you use first person voice liberally. Not that I object to this in general, it's definitely a great tool for communicating Christian truth. However, since this is an Encyclopedia, perhaps we should consider using a more objective (third person) voice as much as possible? In articles and opinions, of course, first person is entirely acceptable. But in the more historical and factual entries, I wonder whether the first person voice comes off as scholarly or merely as &quot;preachy,&quot; thus turning off potential believers and causing WikiChristian to be viewed as &quot;just another evangelist website.&quot; Again, not that I object to your writing style in general, I think you're doing a great thing by devoting so much of your time to this project! [[User:Avertist|Avertist]] 09:07, 23 Apr 2005 (PDT)<br /> <br /> :Hi Avertis. I've really enjoyed learning from your articles. You're doing a great job.<br /> :It's quite true that I do write opinions often. I try to make it clear that it is an opinion - which is why I write my name next to the article - so that a user can skip stuff I write if they don't want to read opinions, or so they can click on my name and read my background and understand my biases. You're also right in saying that using the first person doesn't always come off as scholarly. But when discussing Christianity, does it always have to be scholarly? Can experience or a testimony or even just a gut feeling be as worthwhile?<br /> :I guess I disagree with you on one point. You say that this is an Encyclopedia. My hope is that this is not only an encyclopedia - if it were only an encyclopedia then why not just write in Wikipedia? I hope this is a place where people can write their views and opinions including their understanding of history. The way I am going to write about about the Reformation is probably going to be quite different than the way a Roman Catholic would write about the Reformation, or again different from the way an atheist would write about it. Although there are historical facts involved, I think there will usually be a slant in one direction or another. I think it is best to allow multiple articles on the history of the reformation (or any other topic). Perhaps there should be the main article that is dry and factual only, but I think it is fine also for there to be lots of other articles which tend to have a slant in one way or another. Sometimes that will be &quot;preachy&quot; but hopefully at least it will be open for dialogue, discussion and rebuttal. I also don't think making this a purely factual Encyclopedia is likely to help brng people to Christ. Maybe I'm wrong - I'd be interested to know if anyone has been significantly drawn to Jesus by looking up information about Christianity on wikipedia.<br /> :If you look at the [[baptism]] page you'll see that I've written an article there which is clearly my own opinion. Obviously there will be people who have different opinions on this topic. I think it would be great if other people add links for new articles where they can explain their alternate views. Even the writer of Easton's Bible Dictionary is pretty biased (and this is supposed to be a dictionary which I would imagine shouldn't be biased). If you read [[Bible Dictionary: Baptism]] you'll see that there is clearly a particular point being pushed.<br /> :What you say is important though. I shouldn't be writing things that turn people away from Christ - I guess what I want to do is write things that say what I believe and challenge people to think about what they believe - be it the same or different from my belief. Sometimes I fail at that task. If you let me know which comments I make in which articles that are specifically preachy and that you think would really offend people, let me know and I'll try and fix them up. Your brother in Christ, --Graham Grove<br /> <br /> ::Hi Graham, I worry that I may have overstated the problem in my first post. In the vast majority of your articles I don't see anything to worry about. But take, for instance, in the conclusion section of [[An overview of the main denominations and the history of the Christian Church (By G.G.)]]. The rest of the article is mostly factual, but the conclusion is definitely composed mostly of opinion. It's an opinion I share completely, so I'm not objecting to the content of it, but it seems to me that the best place for that section would be in a separate article discussing your opinion on the unity of the Church, etc. And though it does not sound particularly preachy to me, I can almost guarantee you that some of my atheist/agnostic friends would read it as trying to &quot;explain away&quot; the &quot;fact&quot; that Christianity just &quot;can't figure itself out,&quot; or something to that effect. Would minor reorganizations like this actually convert them? Probably not, but it would remove that small objection they may have.<br /> ::I completely agree that Wikichristian should be much more than a dry encyclopedia; my concern is that the division between fact and opinion might become blurred if we are not careful about this. [[User:Avertist|Avertist]] 00:26, 24 Apr 2005 (PDT)<br /> <br /> :::Thanks Avertis. I think you were quite right - that was out of place in an article that probably should have remained neutral and factual. I've moved my conclusion into a separate article. Thanks for the advice. --Graham Grove, 24 April<br /> <br /> ::Hi Graham, I'm glad we agreed on this :). On a semi-related note, I thought more about what you said about wikipedia being the place for a &quot;dry encyclopedia&quot; and I thought that perhaps just to save time and effort, we could import articles en masse to wikichristian on historical and factual matters. Since wikipedia articles are generally pretty reliable, this way we'll be able to concentrate more of our efforts on dialogue and writing opinion articles (which I agree should be the core of wikichristian). Since you're one of the &quot;main guys&quot; here, I figured I'd ask your thoughts before I started doing it a bunch. But just so you can get an idea of what I mean, I imported the [[Arianism]] article from wikipedia on top of my old entry. As helpful as it is to me to write up my own short explanations of things, I think this would probably be more efficient and beneficial to wikichristian as a whole. I'm interested to know your thoughts. [[User:Avertist|Avertist]] 09:39, 24 Apr 2005 (PDT)<br /> <br /> :::G'day Avertist. Go for it, transfer any articles you think a worth transferring. I've noticed sometimes that I've got to have my thinking hat on when reading articles from Wikipedia. For instance, in the article on Christianity, it has a list of famous Christians, one of whom is Joseph Smith. He's the founder of the Mormon religion, so I don't think it is accurate to say he is a famous Christian. Certainly he was a very influential man and a famous religious leader who has had a major impact in history, but I think most Christians would agree that he should be left off a list of famous Christians. In general though, like you've suggested, Wikipedia is pretty reliable and thorough, so go for it and transfer away. {{unsigned|Graham grove}}<br /> <br /> ==vandalism==<br /> I have noticed that you have some users who are constantly editing the articles to say nasty things. They switch words, screw up spelling so that links do not work, and seem to be somewhat of an annoyance. Is there any way to stop this? It may be that this is the downside to a website like this where users can freely edit each other's work. [[User:JordanBarrett|JordanBarrett]] 13:42, 28 July 2005 (PDT)<br /> <br /> :Yep, that tends to happen a lot. When Prab initially set up the site, that happened a lot and so we protected most of the pages so that only sysops could edit them. Then the vandalism stopped for a time and we unprotected most the pages. It seems to occur periodically again - and it only seems to be coming from one person. There probably is some way of stopping it, but I'm not an expert at wikis so I'm unfamiliar with how to stop it. I know the set up for [[Theopedia]] is that only people with user names can edit pages - perhaps that is the best way around the problem. You could talk to [[User:Prab|Prab]] about the problems if you want. --Graham<br /> <br /> ==hello from [[User:Phatcat68]]==<br /> Hello Graham! I saw your message to check out this site and decided to do so. I went ahead and signed up as a user and added some churches that I know of in West Virginia. Thanks for the invitation! I will check out the pages you indicated as time permits! Thanks again! --[[User:Phatcat68|Phatcat68]] 20:59, 29 Sep 2005 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :G'day and welcome Phatcat68. Thanks for adding to the directory of churches. Feel free to create and edit other articles if you want to. A while back we had a lot of trouble with vandalism (and the only way we could stop it and make the vandals go away was to protect all the pages). Hopefully most pages have now been unprotected and if we haven't unprotected them all it is only because of forgetfulness. If you find one that is protected, give me a yell, and I'll unprotect it. --[[User:Graham grove|Graham grove]] 22:28, 29 Sep 2005 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ==hello from [[User:SWD316]]==<br /> Hi there Graham, Im SWD316. I created an account and user page! Thanks for the invintation here! I didn't see it until today. You put it in an archive on my Wikipedia page, coincidentally it was an archive of coversations I had with Phatcat68! Wierd. Anyways thanks for the invite! [[User:SWD316|&lt;font color=&quot;FF0000&quot;&gt;S&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;EE0000&quot;&gt;W&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;DD0000&quot;&gt;D&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;CC0000&quot;&gt;3&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;BB0000&quot;&gt;1&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;AA0000&quot;&gt;6]]&lt;/font&gt; (yes I have a user page; it just looks like a red link!)<br /> <br /> == Invitation to RWiki Yahoo Group ==<br /> <br /> Dear Graham, I'd like to invite you to join the RWiki Yahoo Group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rwiki/. Here's my preliminary description of the group:<br /> :This group is an informal association of administrators of religiously-based wikis. Most of us are using MediaWiki, but administrators of other wiki engines are also invited to join.<br /> We envision this as a low-volume list where administrators of religiously rooted wiki communities can trade tips and ideas, work together to fight spambots and vandals, and so on.<br /> <br /> RWiki is sponsored by OrthodoxWiki (http://www.orthodoxwiki.org). It is open to wikis based in all &quot;recognized&quot; religious communities. This generally does not include NRMs or groups commonly described as &quot;cults.&quot;<br /> <br /> The archives of this list are kept private, and membership is restricted to those who genuinely qualify for this kind of group. Please apply with the name and URL of your wiki, as well as a description of your role in managing it.<br /> <br /> Yours in Christ --John S. (User:FrJohn at http://orthodoxwiki.org)<br /> <br /> == vandalism in general ==<br /> <br /> Hi, I am the creator of the new Bible encyclopedia wiki based in the United States called, [http://wikible.org Wikible]. I noticed that this site is getting hammered all the time with spam. I was just curious what kind of spam protection you are using? I am using the Bad Behavior mediawiki extension at my site. Also, I've noticed this site is using a very old version of MediaWiki. perhaps a upgrade to the latest stable version, 1.5.6 (as of this post), would help curb that somewhat. As you know, spammers will try to use vulnerabilities in software to their advantage, and it would probably help to upgrade. Have a good day, and keep serving the savior! --[[User:Ymmotrojam|Ymmotrojam]] 04:51, 22 Jan 2006 (EST)<br /> <br /> == Shorter URLs ==<br /> Hi there. I recently responded to your [[Talk:Christian wikis#Thoughts from JJ|&quot;open letter&quot;]]. I'm starting to dig a little deeper into WikiChristian; I had been spending most of my time on Wikible.org. May I recommend [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Eliminating_index.php_from_the_url this nifty tip] to help clean up the wikichristian URLs? (I've also added this [[User_talk:Prab#Shorter_URLs|to Prab's talk page]] since he seems to be more technically-oriented.) --[[User:RockOfVictory|J. J.]] 18:21, 26 July 2006 (PDT)<br /> <br /> == Still watching ==<br /> I got your comment on Wikipedia. Even though I'm not spending as much time here, I still check the &quot;Recent changes&quot; page frenquently to get a pulse on what's happening with the wiki. --[[User:RockOfVictory|J. J.]] 10:13, 8 August 2006 (PDT)<br /> <br /> ==Thanks==<br /> <br /> Hey, Graham! Thanks for your support of me being a sysop. I agree with you in that it would be a good thing for admins to have varying beliefs, as long as they all accept Christ as their Lord and Savior. Both you and Tom seem to want me to help out as an admin, yet nobody's promoted me yet; is this because you need permission from Prab first?<br /> <br /> God bless!&lt;br&gt;[[User:P.B. Pilhet|P.B. Pilhet]] / [[User talk:P.B. Pilhet|Talk]] 22:37, 21 October 2006 (EST)<br /> <br /> ==Deletion of C.S. Lewis (overview)==<br /> <br /> Hey, Graham! Sorry if I shouldn't have deleted that page. Do you want me to undelete it, or will you do that, or what? I just figured that, since the overview page was actually ''smaller'' than the main page, it would just be easier to have it all on one page. I thought that if the article ever ''did'' get bigger, then the overview page could simply be created again. Otherwise, with the article as it is, an overview page seems, at least to me, to just take up database space and clutter up the article. But either way I won't delete any more overview pages again, if you guys don't want me to :-)<br /> <br /> God bless!&lt;br&gt;[[User:P.B. Pilhet|P.B. Pilhet]] / [[User talk:P.B. Pilhet|Talk]] 17:09, 22 October 2006 (EST)<br /> <br /> :No problems. That's fine what you did. I think that your approach to delete the page was fine; we can always recreate it later if need be. I'd prefer you not to delete the overview articles, but I know that Tom has a different point of view. You do what you think is best. Keep in mind that there are a lot of different view points in Christianity, and at least the system with overviews allows for people to contribute either to the overview, or alternatively to create opinion style articles. --[[User:Graham grove|Graham grove]] 17:12, 22 October 2006 (EST)<br /> <br /> ::Okay, Graham! I don't really like the overview system, but I'll leave it alone to be on the safe side.<br /> <br /> ::God bless,&lt;br&gt;[[User:P.B. Pilhet|P.B. Pilhet]] / [[User talk:P.B. Pilhet|Talk]] 17:17, 22 October 2006 (EST)<br /> <br /> == Vandalism ==<br /> <br /> Hey Graham. I don't mind the accidental block :-)<br /> <br /> It seems to be pretty simple to change move permissions. Whoever has access to the server will have a file called LocalSettings.php. In that file, there's a section that looks like this:<br /> <br /> &lt;code&gt;$wgGroupPermissions['*' ]['createaccount'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['*' ]['read'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['*' ]['edit'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['*' ]['createpage'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['*' ]['createtalk'] = true;&lt;/code&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br /> <br /> '''&lt;code&gt;$wgGroupPermissions['user' ]['move'] = true;&lt;/code&gt;'''&lt;br&gt;<br /> &lt;code&gt;$wgGroupPermissions['user' ]['read'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['user' ]['edit'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['user' ]['createpage'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['user' ]['createtalk'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['user' ]['upload'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['user' ]['reupload'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['user' ]['reupload-shared'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['user' ]['minoredit'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> <br /> $wgGroupPermissions['autoconfirmed']['autoconfirmed'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> <br /> $wgGroupPermissions['bot' ]['bot'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['bot' ]['autoconfirmed'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> <br /> $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['block'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['createaccount'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['delete'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['deletedhistory'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['editinterface'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['import'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['importupload'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['move'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['patrol'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['protect'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['rollback'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['upload'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['reupload'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['reupload-shared'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['unwatchedpages'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['autoconfirmed'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> <br /> $wgGroupPermissions['bureaucrat']['userrights'] = true;&lt;/code&gt;<br /> <br /> <br /> I assume Prab is the only one with access to the server, so he just needs to change the bolded line from &lt;code&gt;= true;&lt;/code&gt; to &lt;code&gt;= false;&lt;/code&gt;. Since a lot of the vandalism is coming from the same people (I think), we might also want to install the [http://wiki.evernex.com/index.php?title=Installing_CheckUser Check User] special extension, which will allow us to see which IP addresses an editor is using, so we can effectively ban him/her. -- [[User:P.B. Pilhet|P.B. Pilhet]] / [[User talk:P.B. Pilhet|Talk]] 13:43, 29 November 2006 (EST)<br /> <br /> :done :-) --[[User:Ymmotrojam|Tom]] 15:48, 29 November 2006 (EST)<br /> <br /> ::I noticed that you blocked Dan McQueen. Just thought I'd tell you that I had already blocked him earlier :-) [[User:P.B. Pilhet|P.B. Pilhet]] / [[User talk:P.B. Pilhet|Talk]] 17:13, 29 November 2006 (EST)</div> Ymmotrojam http://www.wikichristian.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=User_talk:Delrosso&diff=143116 User talk:Delrosso 2006-12-11T00:52:00Z <p>Ymmotrojam: Reverted edits by Blatant Vandal (Talk); changed back to last version by P.B. Pilhet</p> <hr /> <div>Hello, Delrosso! Welcome to WikiChristian! I saw that you created the discussion page for [[Original sin]]; nice job! If you have any questions, just ask me! -- [[User:P.B. Pilhet|P.B. Pilhet]] / [[User talk:P.B. Pilhet|Talk]] 14:46, 15 November 2006 (EST)</div> Ymmotrojam http://www.wikichristian.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=User_talk:Gavinantonyrice&diff=143113 User talk:Gavinantonyrice 2006-12-11T00:51:11Z <p>Ymmotrojam: Reverted edits by Blatant Vandal (Talk); changed back to last version by Graham grove</p> <hr /> <div>Hi. Welcome to WikiChristian. Thankyou for drawing attention to some problems in the article on Mary in Roman Catholicism. Perhaps next time you make, you could correct inaccuracies in rewriting and rewording the article rather than in making counter comments. --[[User:Graham grove|Graham grove]] 02:27, 10 December 2006 (EST)</div> Ymmotrojam http://www.wikichristian.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=User_talk:Graham_grove/Archive_1&diff=142945 User talk:Graham grove/Archive 1 2006-11-29T20:48:44Z <p>Ymmotrojam: /* Vandalism */</p> <hr /> <div>Hi Graham, How are you? I am wondering if we should try to change our domain name to WikiChristian.org and forward the wikichristian.com to that domain since it makes more sense since we want to keep it a non-commercial project. We can also consider registering a [[not for profit organization]] as we grow. Please share your thoughts on this. We already have both the domains with us. Thanks. -Prab<br /> <br /> :Hi Prab, Sure. I don't really know what the difference between .com and .org is - but if you think there is a good reason for the change, go for it. --Graham<br /> <br /> Hi Graham. I'm glad you're working here. This idea of a Christian wiki has a lot of potential. --[[User:DavidCary|DavidCary]] 22:15, 8 Mar 2005 (PST)<br /> <br /> :Thanks David --Graham<br /> <br /> ::''You're welcome. Yes, I would like to [http://theconnexion.net/compass/index.php/User_talk:DavidCary contribute]. I'm glad WikiChristian and the Compass wiki are [http://theconnexion.net/compass/index.php/User_talk:WikiSysop getting along so well]. --[[User:DavidCary|DavidCary]] 18:00, 22 Mar 2005 (PST)''<br /> <br /> Hi Graham, Thank you for the wonderful work you are doing with all the lyrics. In order to better organize the information in the wiki, it is a good idea to categorize the pages so that the system automatically creates alphabetical lists. All we have to do is to type &lt;nowiki&gt;[[Category:type]]&lt;/nowiki&gt; at the bottom of the page. For example, the songs category pages should have &lt;nowiki&gt;[[category:songs]]&lt;/nowiki&gt;. Also, there are some dead end pages that do not have any link and the best way to avoid creating dead end pages is by categories and templates. To create a new template, just type &lt;nowiki&gt;{{template name}}&lt;/nowiki&gt; and edit the template page with the link created. Thanks for the understanding. --[[User:Prab]]<br /> <br /> :Hi Prab, Yep - it's a good idea to use templates and categories. Makes sense to me. However, I still like to have the index and contents pages under the control of the users rather than at the mercy of an automated system. Thanks --Graham <br /> <br /> Hi Graham, Thanks for the message in my user page. I think we can do both. Actually, the system does a good job in organizing the info alphabetically but giving the control to the users as well makes sense and we will continue both. Thanks. -Prab<br /> <br /> Hello, Graham. Thank you for the warm welcome to WikiChristian. As a United Methodist, I suspect I'll be making lots of Wesleyan-type edits but hope to add significantly to the encyclopedia in a number of categories. Good to be a part of the community! Shalom! [[User:KHM03|KHM03]] 15:05, 22 Mar 2005 (PST)<br /> <br /> ==Song Styleguide==<br /> I'd like to draw your attention to this talk page, Graham, [[WikiChristian talk:Song styleguide]]. I've made a pretty signigicant change to the titles of the songs and lyrics and hope to promote a single style for the titles. --[[User:Mustaphile|Mustaphile]] 11:06, 8 May 2005 (PDT)<br /> <br /> ==found your picture==<br /> Found your picture on your website<br /> <br /> Good to put a face to the name. {{smile}} --[[User:Mustaphile|Mustaphile]] 20:57, 22 May 2005 (PDT)<br /> <br /> ==writing in first person==<br /> Hi Graham (my name also happens to be Graham), I was just reading through some of the articles and I notice that frequently in the articles you write you use first person voice liberally. Not that I object to this in general, it's definitely a great tool for communicating Christian truth. However, since this is an Encyclopedia, perhaps we should consider using a more objective (third person) voice as much as possible? In articles and opinions, of course, first person is entirely acceptable. But in the more historical and factual entries, I wonder whether the first person voice comes off as scholarly or merely as &quot;preachy,&quot; thus turning off potential believers and causing WikiChristian to be viewed as &quot;just another evangelist website.&quot; Again, not that I object to your writing style in general, I think you're doing a great thing by devoting so much of your time to this project! [[User:Avertist|Avertist]] 09:07, 23 Apr 2005 (PDT)<br /> <br /> :Hi Avertis. I've really enjoyed learning from your articles. You're doing a great job.<br /> :It's quite true that I do write opinions often. I try to make it clear that it is an opinion - which is why I write my name next to the article - so that a user can skip stuff I write if they don't want to read opinions, or so they can click on my name and read my background and understand my biases. You're also right in saying that using the first person doesn't always come off as scholarly. But when discussing Christianity, does it always have to be scholarly? Can experience or a testimony or even just a gut feeling be as worthwhile?<br /> :I guess I disagree with you on one point. You say that this is an Encyclopedia. My hope is that this is not only an encyclopedia - if it were only an encyclopedia then why not just write in Wikipedia? I hope this is a place where people can write their views and opinions including their understanding of history. The way I am going to write about about the Reformation is probably going to be quite different than the way a Roman Catholic would write about the Reformation, or again different from the way an atheist would write about it. Although there are historical facts involved, I think there will usually be a slant in one direction or another. I think it is best to allow multiple articles on the history of the reformation (or any other topic). Perhaps there should be the main article that is dry and factual only, but I think it is fine also for there to be lots of other articles which tend to have a slant in one way or another. Sometimes that will be &quot;preachy&quot; but hopefully at least it will be open for dialogue, discussion and rebuttal. I also don't think making this a purely factual Encyclopedia is likely to help brng people to Christ. Maybe I'm wrong - I'd be interested to know if anyone has been significantly drawn to Jesus by looking up information about Christianity on wikipedia.<br /> :If you look at the [[baptism]] page you'll see that I've written an article there which is clearly my own opinion. Obviously there will be people who have different opinions on this topic. I think it would be great if other people add links for new articles where they can explain their alternate views. Even the writer of Easton's Bible Dictionary is pretty biased (and this is supposed to be a dictionary which I would imagine shouldn't be biased). If you read [[Bible Dictionary: Baptism]] you'll see that there is clearly a particular point being pushed.<br /> :What you say is important though. I shouldn't be writing things that turn people away from Christ - I guess what I want to do is write things that say what I believe and challenge people to think about what they believe - be it the same or different from my belief. Sometimes I fail at that task. If you let me know which comments I make in which articles that are specifically preachy and that you think would really offend people, let me know and I'll try and fix them up. Your brother in Christ, --Graham Grove<br /> <br /> ::Hi Graham, I worry that I may have overstated the problem in my first post. In the vast majority of your articles I don't see anything to worry about. But take, for instance, in the conclusion section of [[An overview of the main denominations and the history of the Christian Church (By G.G.)]]. The rest of the article is mostly factual, but the conclusion is definitely composed mostly of opinion. It's an opinion I share completely, so I'm not objecting to the content of it, but it seems to me that the best place for that section would be in a separate article discussing your opinion on the unity of the Church, etc. And though it does not sound particularly preachy to me, I can almost guarantee you that some of my atheist/agnostic friends would read it as trying to &quot;explain away&quot; the &quot;fact&quot; that Christianity just &quot;can't figure itself out,&quot; or something to that effect. Would minor reorganizations like this actually convert them? Probably not, but it would remove that small objection they may have.<br /> ::I completely agree that Wikichristian should be much more than a dry encyclopedia; my concern is that the division between fact and opinion might become blurred if we are not careful about this. [[User:Avertist|Avertist]] 00:26, 24 Apr 2005 (PDT)<br /> <br /> :::Thanks Avertis. I think you were quite right - that was out of place in an article that probably should have remained neutral and factual. I've moved my conclusion into a separate article. Thanks for the advice. --Graham Grove, 24 April<br /> <br /> ::Hi Graham, I'm glad we agreed on this :). On a semi-related note, I thought more about what you said about wikipedia being the place for a &quot;dry encyclopedia&quot; and I thought that perhaps just to save time and effort, we could import articles en masse to wikichristian on historical and factual matters. Since wikipedia articles are generally pretty reliable, this way we'll be able to concentrate more of our efforts on dialogue and writing opinion articles (which I agree should be the core of wikichristian). Since you're one of the &quot;main guys&quot; here, I figured I'd ask your thoughts before I started doing it a bunch. But just so you can get an idea of what I mean, I imported the [[Arianism]] article from wikipedia on top of my old entry. As helpful as it is to me to write up my own short explanations of things, I think this would probably be more efficient and beneficial to wikichristian as a whole. I'm interested to know your thoughts. [[User:Avertist|Avertist]] 09:39, 24 Apr 2005 (PDT)<br /> <br /> :::G'day Avertist. Go for it, transfer any articles you think a worth transferring. I've noticed sometimes that I've got to have my thinking hat on when reading articles from Wikipedia. For instance, in the article on Christianity, it has a list of famous Christians, one of whom is Joseph Smith. He's the founder of the Mormon religion, so I don't think it is accurate to say he is a famous Christian. Certainly he was a very influential man and a famous religious leader who has had a major impact in history, but I think most Christians would agree that he should be left off a list of famous Christians. In general though, like you've suggested, Wikipedia is pretty reliable and thorough, so go for it and transfer away. {{unsigned|Graham grove}}<br /> <br /> ==vandalism==<br /> I have noticed that you have some users who are constantly editing the articles to say nasty things. They switch words, screw up spelling so that links do not work, and seem to be somewhat of an annoyance. Is there any way to stop this? It may be that this is the downside to a website like this where users can freely edit each other's work. [[User:JordanBarrett|JordanBarrett]] 13:42, 28 July 2005 (PDT)<br /> <br /> :Yep, that tends to happen a lot. When Prab initially set up the site, that happened a lot and so we protected most of the pages so that only sysops could edit them. Then the vandalism stopped for a time and we unprotected most the pages. It seems to occur periodically again - and it only seems to be coming from one person. There probably is some way of stopping it, but I'm not an expert at wikis so I'm unfamiliar with how to stop it. I know the set up for [[Theopedia]] is that only people with user names can edit pages - perhaps that is the best way around the problem. You could talk to [[User:Prab|Prab]] about the problems if you want. --Graham<br /> <br /> ==hello from [[User:Phatcat68]]==<br /> Hello Graham! I saw your message to check out this site and decided to do so. I went ahead and signed up as a user and added some churches that I know of in West Virginia. Thanks for the invitation! I will check out the pages you indicated as time permits! Thanks again! --[[User:Phatcat68|Phatcat68]] 20:59, 29 Sep 2005 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :G'day and welcome Phatcat68. Thanks for adding to the directory of churches. Feel free to create and edit other articles if you want to. A while back we had a lot of trouble with vandalism (and the only way we could stop it and make the vandals go away was to protect all the pages). Hopefully most pages have now been unprotected and if we haven't unprotected them all it is only because of forgetfulness. If you find one that is protected, give me a yell, and I'll unprotect it. --[[User:Graham grove|Graham grove]] 22:28, 29 Sep 2005 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ==hello from [[User:SWD316]]==<br /> Hi there Graham, Im SWD316. I created an account and user page! Thanks for the invintation here! I didn't see it until today. You put it in an archive on my Wikipedia page, coincidentally it was an archive of coversations I had with Phatcat68! Wierd. Anyways thanks for the invite! [[User:SWD316|&lt;font color=&quot;FF0000&quot;&gt;S&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;EE0000&quot;&gt;W&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;DD0000&quot;&gt;D&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;CC0000&quot;&gt;3&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;BB0000&quot;&gt;1&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;AA0000&quot;&gt;6]]&lt;/font&gt; (yes I have a user page; it just looks like a red link!)<br /> <br /> == Invitation to RWiki Yahoo Group ==<br /> <br /> Dear Graham, I'd like to invite you to join the RWiki Yahoo Group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rwiki/. Here's my preliminary description of the group:<br /> :This group is an informal association of administrators of religiously-based wikis. Most of us are using MediaWiki, but administrators of other wiki engines are also invited to join.<br /> We envision this as a low-volume list where administrators of religiously rooted wiki communities can trade tips and ideas, work together to fight spambots and vandals, and so on.<br /> <br /> RWiki is sponsored by OrthodoxWiki (http://www.orthodoxwiki.org). It is open to wikis based in all &quot;recognized&quot; religious communities. This generally does not include NRMs or groups commonly described as &quot;cults.&quot;<br /> <br /> The archives of this list are kept private, and membership is restricted to those who genuinely qualify for this kind of group. Please apply with the name and URL of your wiki, as well as a description of your role in managing it.<br /> <br /> Yours in Christ --John S. (User:FrJohn at http://orthodoxwiki.org)<br /> <br /> == vandalism in general ==<br /> <br /> Hi, I am the creator of the new Bible encyclopedia wiki based in the United States called, [http://wikible.org Wikible]. I noticed that this site is getting hammered all the time with spam. I was just curious what kind of spam protection you are using? I am using the Bad Behavior mediawiki extension at my site. Also, I've noticed this site is using a very old version of MediaWiki. perhaps a upgrade to the latest stable version, 1.5.6 (as of this post), would help curb that somewhat. As you know, spammers will try to use vulnerabilities in software to their advantage, and it would probably help to upgrade. Have a good day, and keep serving the savior! --[[User:Ymmotrojam|Ymmotrojam]] 04:51, 22 Jan 2006 (EST)<br /> <br /> == Shorter URLs ==<br /> Hi there. I recently responded to your [[Talk:Christian wikis#Thoughts from JJ|&quot;open letter&quot;]]. I'm starting to dig a little deeper into WikiChristian; I had been spending most of my time on Wikible.org. May I recommend [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Eliminating_index.php_from_the_url this nifty tip] to help clean up the wikichristian URLs? (I've also added this [[User_talk:Prab#Shorter_URLs|to Prab's talk page]] since he seems to be more technically-oriented.) --[[User:RockOfVictory|J. J.]] 18:21, 26 July 2006 (PDT)<br /> <br /> == Still watching ==<br /> I got your comment on Wikipedia. Even though I'm not spending as much time here, I still check the &quot;Recent changes&quot; page frenquently to get a pulse on what's happening with the wiki. --[[User:RockOfVictory|J. J.]] 10:13, 8 August 2006 (PDT)<br /> <br /> ==Thanks==<br /> <br /> Hey, Graham! Thanks for your support of me being a sysop. I agree with you in that it would be a good thing for admins to have varying beliefs, as long as they all accept Christ as their Lord and Savior. Both you and Tom seem to want me to help out as an admin, yet nobody's promoted me yet; is this because you need permission from Prab first?<br /> <br /> God bless!&lt;br&gt;[[User:P.B. Pilhet|P.B. Pilhet]] / [[User talk:P.B. Pilhet|Talk]] 22:37, 21 October 2006 (EST)<br /> <br /> ==Deletion of C.S. Lewis (overview)==<br /> <br /> Hey, Graham! Sorry if I shouldn't have deleted that page. Do you want me to undelete it, or will you do that, or what? I just figured that, since the overview page was actually ''smaller'' than the main page, it would just be easier to have it all on one page. I thought that if the article ever ''did'' get bigger, then the overview page could simply be created again. Otherwise, with the article as it is, an overview page seems, at least to me, to just take up database space and clutter up the article. But either way I won't delete any more overview pages again, if you guys don't want me to :-)<br /> <br /> God bless!&lt;br&gt;[[User:P.B. Pilhet|P.B. Pilhet]] / [[User talk:P.B. Pilhet|Talk]] 17:09, 22 October 2006 (EST)<br /> <br /> :No problems. That's fine what you did. I think that your approach to delete the page was fine; we can always recreate it later if need be. I'd prefer you not to delete the overview articles, but I know that Tom has a different point of view. You do what you think is best. Keep in mind that there are a lot of different view points in Christianity, and at least the system with overviews allows for people to contribute either to the overview, or alternatively to create opinion style articles. --[[User:Graham grove|Graham grove]] 17:12, 22 October 2006 (EST)<br /> <br /> ::Okay, Graham! I don't really like the overview system, but I'll leave it alone to be on the safe side.<br /> <br /> ::God bless,&lt;br&gt;[[User:P.B. Pilhet|P.B. Pilhet]] / [[User talk:P.B. Pilhet|Talk]] 17:17, 22 October 2006 (EST)<br /> <br /> == Vandalism ==<br /> <br /> Hey Graham. I don't mind the accidental block :-)<br /> <br /> It seems to be pretty simple to change move permissions. Whoever has access to the server will have a file called LocalSettings.php. In that file, there's a section that looks like this:<br /> <br /> &lt;code&gt;$wgGroupPermissions['*' ]['createaccount'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['*' ]['read'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['*' ]['edit'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['*' ]['createpage'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['*' ]['createtalk'] = true;&lt;/code&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br /> <br /> '''&lt;code&gt;$wgGroupPermissions['user' ]['move'] = true;&lt;/code&gt;'''&lt;br&gt;<br /> &lt;code&gt;$wgGroupPermissions['user' ]['read'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['user' ]['edit'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['user' ]['createpage'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['user' ]['createtalk'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['user' ]['upload'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['user' ]['reupload'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['user' ]['reupload-shared'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['user' ]['minoredit'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> <br /> $wgGroupPermissions['autoconfirmed']['autoconfirmed'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> <br /> $wgGroupPermissions['bot' ]['bot'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['bot' ]['autoconfirmed'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> <br /> $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['block'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['createaccount'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['delete'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['deletedhistory'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['editinterface'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['import'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['importupload'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['move'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['patrol'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['protect'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['rollback'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['upload'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['reupload'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['reupload-shared'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['unwatchedpages'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['autoconfirmed'] = true;&lt;br&gt;<br /> <br /> $wgGroupPermissions['bureaucrat']['userrights'] = true;&lt;/code&gt;<br /> <br /> <br /> I assume Prab is the only one with access to the server, so he just needs to change the bolded line from &lt;code&gt;= true;&lt;/code&gt; to &lt;code&gt;= false;&lt;/code&gt;. Since a lot of the vandalism is coming from the same people (I think), we might also want to install the [http://wiki.evernex.com/index.php?title=Installing_CheckUser Check User] special extension, which will allow us to see which IP addresses an editor is using, so we can effectively ban him/her. -- [[User:P.B. Pilhet|P.B. Pilhet]] / [[User talk:P.B. Pilhet|Talk]] 13:43, 29 November 2006 (EST)<br /> <br /> :done :-) --[[User:Ymmotrojam|Tom]] 15:48, 29 November 2006 (EST)</div> Ymmotrojam http://www.wikichristian.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Monobook.js&diff=142630 MediaWiki:Monobook.js 2006-11-27T02:26:32Z <p>Ymmotrojam: </p> <hr /> <div>/* tooltips and access keys */<br /> var ta = new Object();<br /> ta['pt-userpage'] = new Array('.','My user page');<br /> ta['pt-anonuserpage'] = new Array('.','The user page for the ip you\'re editing as');<br /> ta['pt-mytalk'] = new Array('n','My talk page');<br /> ta['pt-anontalk'] = new Array('n','Discussion about edits from this ip address');<br /> ta['pt-preferences'] = new Array('','My preferences');<br /> ta['pt-watchlist'] = new Array('l','The list of pages you\'re monitoring for changes.');<br /> ta['pt-mycontris'] = new Array('y','List of my contributions');<br /> ta['pt-login'] = new Array('o','You are encouraged to log in, it is not mandatory however.');<br /> ta['pt-anonlogin'] = new Array('o','You are encouraged to log in, it is not mandatory however.');<br /> ta['pt-logout'] = new Array('o','Log out');<br /> ta['ca-talk'] = new Array('t','Discussion about the content page');<br /> ta['ca-edit'] = new Array('e','You can edit this page. Please use the preview button before saving.');<br /> ta['ca-addsection'] = new Array('+','Add a comment to this discussion.');<br /> ta['ca-viewsource'] = new Array('e','This page is protected. You can view its source.');<br /> ta['ca-history'] = new Array('h','Past versions of this page.');<br /> ta['ca-protect'] = new Array('=','Protect this page');<br /> ta['ca-delete'] = new Array('d','Delete this page');<br /> ta['ca-undelete'] = new Array('d','Restore the edits done to this page before it was deleted');<br /> ta['ca-move'] = new Array('m','Move this page');<br /> ta['ca-watch'] = new Array('w','Add this page to your watchlist');<br /> ta['ca-unwatch'] = new Array('w','Remove this page from your watchlist');<br /> ta['search'] = new Array('f','Search this wiki');<br /> ta['p-logo'] = new Array('','Main Page');<br /> ta['n-mainpage'] = new Array('z','Visit the Main Page');<br /> ta['n-portal'] = new Array('','About the project, what you can do, where to find things');<br /> ta['n-currentevents'] = new Array('','Find background information on current events');<br /> ta['n-recentchanges'] = new Array('r','The list of recent changes in the wiki.');<br /> ta['n-randompage'] = new Array('x','Load a random page');<br /> ta['n-help'] = new Array('','The place to find out.');<br /> ta['n-sitesupport'] = new Array('','Support us');<br /> ta['t-whatlinkshere'] = new Array('j','List of all wiki pages that link here');<br /> ta['t-recentchangeslinked'] = new Array('k','Recent changes in pages linked from this page');<br /> ta['feed-rss'] = new Array('','RSS feed for this page');<br /> ta['feed-atom'] = new Array('','Atom feed for this page');<br /> ta['t-contributions'] = new Array('','View the list of contributions of this user');<br /> ta['t-emailuser'] = new Array('','Send a mail to this user');<br /> ta['t-upload'] = new Array('u','Upload images or media files');<br /> ta['t-specialpages'] = new Array('q','List of all special pages');<br /> ta['ca-nstab-main'] = new Array('c','View the content page');<br /> ta['ca-nstab-user'] = new Array('c','View the user page');<br /> ta['ca-nstab-media'] = new Array('c','View the media page');<br /> ta['ca-nstab-special'] = new Array('','This is a special page, you can\'t edit the page itself.');<br /> ta['ca-nstab-project'] = new Array('a','View the project page');<br /> ta['ca-nstab-image'] = new Array('c','View the image page');<br /> ta['ca-nstab-mediawiki'] = new Array('c','View the system message');<br /> ta['ca-nstab-template'] = new Array('c','View the template');<br /> ta['ca-nstab-help'] = new Array('c','View the help page');<br /> ta['ca-nstab-category'] = new Array('c','View the category page');<br /> <br /> <br /> /** Extra toolbar options ****************************************************** &lt;nowiki&gt;<br /> *<br /> * Description: UNDOCUMENTED<br /> * Maintainers: [[User:MarkS]]?, [[User:Voice of All]], [[User:R. Koot]]<br /> */<br /> <br /> //This is a modified copy of a script by User:MarkS for extra features added by User:Voice of All.<br /> // This is based on the original code on Wikipedia:Tools/Editing tools<br /> <br /> if (mwCustomEditButtons) {<br /> mwCustomEditButtons[mwCustomEditButtons.length] = {<br /> &quot;imageFile&quot;: &quot;http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c8/Button_redirect.png&quot;,<br /> &quot;speedTip&quot;: &quot;Redirect&quot;,<br /> &quot;tagOpen&quot;: &quot;#REDIRECT [[&quot;,<br /> &quot;tagClose&quot;: &quot;]]&quot;,<br /> &quot;sampleText&quot;: &quot;Insert text&quot;};<br /> <br /> mwCustomEditButtons[mwCustomEditButtons.length] = {<br /> &quot;imageFile&quot;: &quot;http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c9/Button_strike.png&quot;,<br /> &quot;speedTip&quot;: &quot;Strike&quot;,<br /> &quot;tagOpen&quot;: &quot;&lt;s&gt;&quot;,<br /> &quot;tagClose&quot;: &quot;&lt;/s&gt;&quot;,<br /> &quot;sampleText&quot;: &quot;Strike-through text&quot;};<br /> <br /> mwCustomEditButtons[mwCustomEditButtons.length] = {<br /> &quot;imageFile&quot;: &quot;http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/13/Button_enter.png&quot;,<br /> &quot;speedTip&quot;: &quot;Line break&quot;,<br /> &quot;tagOpen&quot;: &quot;&lt;br /&gt;&quot;,<br /> &quot;tagClose&quot;: &quot;&quot;,<br /> &quot;sampleText&quot;: &quot;&quot;};<br /> <br /> mwCustomEditButtons[mwCustomEditButtons.length] = {<br /> &quot;imageFile&quot;: &quot;http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/80/Button_upper_letter.png&quot;,<br /> &quot;speedTip&quot;: &quot;Superscript&quot;,<br /> &quot;tagOpen&quot;: &quot;&lt;sup&gt;&quot;,<br /> &quot;tagClose&quot;: &quot;&lt;/sup&gt;&quot;,<br /> &quot;sampleText&quot;: &quot;Superscript text&quot;};<br /> <br /> mwCustomEditButtons[mwCustomEditButtons.length] = {<br /> &quot;imageFile&quot;: &quot;http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/70/Button_lower_letter.png&quot;,<br /> &quot;speedTip&quot;: &quot;Subscript&quot;,<br /> &quot;tagOpen&quot;: &quot;&lt;sub&gt;&quot;,<br /> &quot;tagClose&quot;: &quot;&lt;/sub&gt;&quot;,<br /> &quot;sampleText&quot;: &quot;Subscript text&quot;};<br /> <br /> mwCustomEditButtons[mwCustomEditButtons.length] = {<br /> &quot;imageFile&quot;: &quot;http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/58/Button_small.png&quot;,<br /> &quot;speedTip&quot;: &quot;Small&quot;,<br /> &quot;tagOpen&quot;: &quot;&lt;small&gt;&quot;,<br /> &quot;tagClose&quot;: &quot;&lt;/small&gt;&quot;,<br /> &quot;sampleText&quot;: &quot;Small Text&quot;};<br /> <br /> mwCustomEditButtons[mwCustomEditButtons.length] = {<br /> &quot;imageFile&quot;: &quot;http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/34/Button_hide_comment.png&quot;,<br /> &quot;speedTip&quot;: &quot;Insert hidden Comment&quot;,<br /> &quot;tagOpen&quot;: &quot;&lt;!-- &quot;,<br /> &quot;tagClose&quot;: &quot; --&gt;&quot;,<br /> &quot;sampleText&quot;: &quot;Comment&quot;};<br /> <br /> mwCustomEditButtons[mwCustomEditButtons.length] = {<br /> &quot;imageFile&quot;: &quot;http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/12/Button_gallery.png&quot;,<br /> &quot;speedTip&quot;: &quot;Insert a picture gallery&quot;,<br /> &quot;tagOpen&quot;: &quot;\n&lt;gallery&gt;\n&quot;,<br /> &quot;tagClose&quot;: &quot;\n&lt;/gallery&gt;&quot;,<br /> &quot;sampleText&quot;: &quot;Image:Example.jpg|Caption1\nImage:Example.jpg|Caption2&quot;};<br /> <br /> mwCustomEditButtons[mwCustomEditButtons.length] = {<br /> &quot;imageFile&quot;: &quot;http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/fd/Button_blockquote.png&quot;,<br /> &quot;speedTip&quot;: &quot;Insert block of quoted text&quot;,<br /> &quot;tagOpen&quot;: &quot;&lt;blockquote&gt;\n&quot;,<br /> &quot;tagClose&quot;: &quot;\n&lt;/blockquote&gt;&quot;,<br /> &quot;sampleText&quot;: &quot;Block quote&quot;};<br /> <br /> mwCustomEditButtons[mwCustomEditButtons.length] = {<br /> &quot;imageFile&quot;: &quot;http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/04/Button_array.png&quot;,<br /> &quot;speedTip&quot;: &quot;Insert a table&quot;,<br /> &quot;tagOpen&quot;: '{| class=&quot;wikitable&quot;\n|-\n',<br /> &quot;tagClose&quot;: &quot;\n|}&quot;,<br /> &quot;sampleText&quot;: &quot;! header 1\n! header 2\n! header 3\n|-\n| row 1, cell 1\n| row 1, cell 2\n| row 1, cell 3\n|-\n| row 2, cell 1\n| row 2, cell 2\n| row 2, cell 3&quot;};<br /> }<br /> <br /> /*&lt;/nowiki&gt;*/</div> Ymmotrojam http://www.wikichristian.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=User:Graham_grove/Grace_-_Justification_by_faith_alone&diff=142628 User:Graham grove/Grace - Justification by faith alone 2006-11-26T04:56:56Z <p>Ymmotrojam: Grace - Justification by faith alone (G.G.) moved to User:Graham grove/Grace - Justification by faith alone</p> <hr /> <div>''This article is an opinion article by [[Graham Llewellyn Grove]]''<br /> <br /> <br /> {{quote | text=For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.}}<br /> <br /> <br /> ==Introduction==<br /> <br /> The famous author of Christian literature, [[C.S. Lewis]], was once asked by two men what the difference was between Christianity and other religions. He thought about the question and gave an answer that surprised his friends... [[Grace]]. <br /> <br /> One of the most famous song in the world is [[Amazing Grace (song)|Amazing Grace]]. The words to the first verse are<br /> : ''Amazing grace, how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me.''<br /> : ''I once was lost, but now am found; was blind, but now I see''<br /> <br /> And the second verse continues<br /> :''Twas grace that taught my heart to fear and grace my fears relieved.''<br /> :''How precious did that grace appear the hour I first believed''<br /> <br /> I still remember the hour I first began to understand the meaning of grace. I was 13 years old and at a youth group camp. My small-group leader was explaining our separation from [[God]] using an analogy. She said that we were all like a man who was standing on the edge of a chasm. He could see God on the other side, but there was nothing he could do to reach God. Seeing the man, God built a bridge and the man could cross and be with God. There was nothing about the man that made him deserve that bridge, but God built it any way. And this free gift was grace. Like all analogies it's an imperfect one, but it served its purpose, and I began to understand what grace meant.<br /> <br /> The [[Bible]] has a lot to say about grace. Whilst studying this topic, I searched for &quot;grace&quot; in the Bible on the internet. I found that these 5 letters &quot;grace&quot; abounded everywhere. The thing that struck me most was that in the [[Old Testament]] the word &quot;grace&quot; was rare, but &quot;disgrace&quot; was extremely common with almost 100 citations. Conversely, in the [[New Testament]], &quot;grace&quot; was plentiful with over 100 references, and &quot;disgrace&quot; hardly rated a mention. Clearly grace comes with [[Jesus Christ]]. [[John 1:17]] says, &quot;For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ&quot;<br /> <br /> But what is this grace that comes through Jesus Christ?<br /> <br /> This question of grace is at the heart of Christianity. It is closely related to other questions<br /> :What is [[sin]]?<br /> :Who is Jesus? Why did he die?<br /> :What is [[justification]]? What is [[salvation]]?<br /> <br /> There are two very sad aspects about the answers to these questions. Firstly, many Christians do not know the answer. Secondly, of those have an answer, there is no unity in belief.<br /> <br /> The gulf between beliefs is most apparent between the official teaching of the [[Roman Catholic Church]] and the teaching of most [[Protestant churches]].<br /> <br /> ==Justification by faith alone==<br /> <br /> Most Protestant and [[Pentecostal churches]] teach [[justification by faith]] alone. A few short statements can summarize the teachings of salvation and grace in the Protestant churches:<br /> :Every person has sinned, and broken God's law. Each person has turned away from God. The outcome of our sin is death - eternal separation from God.''<br /> :Because we have turned away from God, there is nothing we can do to bring us back to him. No amount of good works will ever be enough to undo the sin we have done.<br /> :On the Cross, Jesus took our sin upon himself, and died for us. This was the only way that our sin could ever be taken away from us.<br /> :We can be made righteous in God's eyes (that is, justified) by our faith - when we accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and believe that he died for us. This belief wipes away all our sins - past, present and future. We are no longer eternally separated from God, but are now his children!<br /> :This faith is all that is needed for our salvation. There is nothing we can or need to do to earn our salvation - faith alone is sufficient.<br /> :Grace is this free, unmerited gift of salvation from God.<br /> :Good works are not required for our salvation. However, faith in Christ will lead to good works.<br /> <br /> [[John 3:16]] is probably the most well known Bible verse in the world. During the 2000 Cricket World Cup I remember seeing a large banner displaying &quot;John 3:16&quot;. The person who wrote the banner knew that he didn't have enough room to write the [[Gospel]] message. I image him lying in bed each night wondering how he could get the crowds to think about Jesus Christ - how he could remind the people of God's [[love]] and their only hope. And then the thought came to him. He only needed to write &quot;John 3:16&quot;. Most people, including non-Christians would know the majestic verse<br /> :''For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life''<br /> <br /> Whoever believes in God's son will not die, but will have everlasting life. John did not write, &quot;whoever believes and ...&quot;! For us to have eternal life, he simply wrote that we must believe in Christ.<br /> <br /> Luke wrote in [[Acts 13]]:38-39<br /> :''Paul said, &quot;Therefore, my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything that could not be justified from the law of Moses.&quot;''<br /> <br /> Paul wrote in [[Romans 3:28]]<br /> :''For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.''<br /> <br /> Again Paul wrote in [[Galatians 2:16]]<br /> :''We know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no-one will be justified.''<br /> <br /> Throughout the New Testament the theme is clear. There is nothing we can do to gain everlasting life with God. There is no way to ever earn this because we have sinned and turned from God. But because of Christ there is nothing we need to do. We can be cleaned from our sin (justified) and can have everlasting life with God freely, as a gift. This is grace.<br /> <br /> To be able to define and understand justification by faith and grace as concepts is perhaps much easier than being able to accept and believe them as true. How can God forgive me of my sin? Surely I have to do something in return?<br /> <br /> ==[[Justification by faith plus works]]?==<br /> <br /> What surprises many Christians, many Catholics included is that the official teaching of the Roman Catholic and [[Eastern Orthodox]] churches is that justification is not by faith alone, but is however, by faith and works. <br /> <br /> The [[Catholic Catechism]] states that, &quot;No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.&quot;<br /> <br /> The [[Council of Trent]] also affirmed that justification is by faith and works with &quot;If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, let him be cursed&quot;<br /> <br /> It was in fact this very issue of justification by faith alone that lead to the division of the Catholic Church in the [[Reformation]]. At that time, the Roman Church was selling [[forgiveness]] for money. This was based on the principles that Christians are not assured of their [[salvation]] and require works for their justification. The reformers believed that a Christian was saved by placing his faith in Christ, and therefore had no need to earn or buy forgiveness because he already has it!<br /> <br /> Although their are many Catholic and Orthodox Christians who are ignorant of the teaching of justification by faith and works, their are also many who are not. Often they tend to see the Protestant viewpoint as shallow and argue that if faith was enough then people would not endeavour to perform [[good works]].<br /> <br /> One reason why Catholic teaching on justification is so different from Protestant teaching is that in Catholicism justification is seen as a process that spans time, whereas in Protestant teaching justification reflects an event, not a process. By explaining justification as a process, Catholicism teaches that justification must begin with faith and be finished with works.<br /> <br /> So how can the Catholic Church teach justification by faith and works? Is this a biblical view?<br /> Before answering the second question, it is important to realize that this does not need to be answered by the Catholic Church. Catholic doctrine is not based solely on scripture, but also on [[tradition]] and papal authority. If a teaching is not supported by the Bible, it does not follow that the Catholic Church abandons the teaching.<br /> <br /> There is certainly one passage in the Bible that cannot be ignored by those who believe that faith alone is sufficient for justification. [[James 2]]:14-20 states:<br /> :''What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed, but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. But someone will say, You have faith; I have deeds. Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that and shudder. You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness, and he was called God's friend. You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.''<br /> <br /> This passage on initial examination appears to contradict every other passage about justification by faith. How can this be?<br /> <br /> In Romans, Paul asks - How can a sinner be justified by God? And he answers that a sinner is justified by faith in Jesus Christ alone, and not by the merit of his good works. In his letter, however, I believe James is asking a very different question. He is not asking if a person is saved by faith plus good works. Instead, he is questioning the kind of faith that justifies. There is real faith, and then there is counterfeit faith. Real faith is living and will be manifest by good works. Counterfeit faith is dead. So when James says, &quot;You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone&quot;, he is saying that the person's works show that his faith is for real. A announcement of faith is insufficient. A person needs a living faith, and a living faith is manifest by good works. His good works announce that his faith is real.<br /> <br /> The [[Roman Catholic Jerome Biblical Commentary]] also has a comment to make about James 2:14-20<br /> :''As is clear from the context, this does not mean that genuine faith is insufficient for justification, but that faith unaccompanied by works is not genuine.''<br /> <br /> <br /> ==Concluding remarks==<br /> <br /> The first words of the well known book called, &quot;What's so amazing about grace&quot; are<br /> <br /> :''There is nothing we can do to make God love us more''<br /> :''There is nothing we can do to make God love us less.''<br /> <br /> I think that's pretty amazing too.<br /> <br /> ==Is justification by faith alone? What do different officially denominations teach==<br /> <br /> ''Roman Catholic'' - Faith plus works<br /> <br /> ''Orthodox'' - Faith plus works<br /> <br /> ''Protestant'' - Faith alone<br /> <br /> ''Pentecostal'' - Faith alone<br /> <br /> {{returnto}} [[Justification by faith]] | [[Justification]] | [[Grace]]</div> Ymmotrojam http://www.wikichristian.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Grace_-_Justification_by_faith_alone_(G.G.)&diff=142629 Grace - Justification by faith alone (G.G.) 2006-11-26T04:56:56Z <p>Ymmotrojam: Grace - Justification by faith alone (G.G.) moved to User:Graham grove/Grace - Justification by faith alone</p> <hr /> <div>#REDIRECT [[User:Graham grove/Grace - Justification by faith alone]]</div> Ymmotrojam http://www.wikichristian.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Talk:Baptism_(G.G.)&diff=142625 Talk:Baptism (G.G.) 2006-11-26T04:55:23Z <p>Ymmotrojam: reverting to non spammed version</p> <hr /> <div>Hey all, I made some minor formatting changes. I also tried to wikify some stuff, though there is alot more of that to be done! Let me know thoughts, etc [[User:Cpark|Cpark]] 18:04, 8 Feb 2005 (PST)</div> Ymmotrojam http://www.wikichristian.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Talk:Baptism_(G.G.)&diff=142623 Talk:Baptism (G.G.) 2006-11-26T04:53:56Z <p>Ymmotrojam: Talk:Baptism (G.G.) moved to User talk:Graham grove/Baptism</p> <hr /> <div>Hey all, I made some minor formatting changes. I also tried to wikify some stuff, though there is alot more of that to be done! 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[http://www.globalequity.org/TravelersForum/posts/18.html buy xenical]<br /> &lt;/div&gt;</div> Ymmotrojam http://www.wikichristian.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Baptism_(G.G.)&diff=142621 Baptism (G.G.) 2006-11-26T04:53:55Z <p>Ymmotrojam: Baptism (G.G.) moved to User:Graham grove/Baptism</p> <hr /> <div>==Introduction==<br /> I was baptized in a friend's swimming pool when I was aged 15. I could have been baptized in the church with water sprinkled on me, but I liked the idea of getting dunked in the water more. So, my family and the rest of the congregation found themselves standing around a backyard swimming pool, whilst my sister (who was also being baptized), the church minister and I found ourselves trembling in our bathers in the cold water. It was the week of Australian Grand Prix, and much larger crowds of people witnessed the racing cars than witnessed my declaration that Jesus is Lord. Yet even as I was plunged under the water, the crowds at the car race did witness this declaration, for as I stepped out of the pool, in the sky in large letters, the words “Jesus is Lord” were written. Aren’t coincidences amazing?! A Christian who was also a pilot had decided that a wonderful way to proclaim Jesus to the multitudes was to write in the sky.<br /> <br /> To me, baptism represented a public declaration, an outward sign of my inward change when I repented of my sins and placed my faith in Jesus Christ and was given new life in him. However, not all Christians see baptism this way.<br /> <br /> ==Examples of baptism in the Bible==<br /> [[Jesus]] was baptized. His cousin, John, was in the wilderness by the River Jordan proclaiming that the Christ was coming and that the people needed to repent of their sins. Many people came to John, confessing their sins and were baptized by him in the river. And so, among the crowds one day, Jesus came to John ([[Matthew]] 3: 13-17)<br /> <br /> :''Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. But John tried to deter him, saying, I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me? Jesus replied, Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfil all righteousness. Then John consented. As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.''<br /> <br /> After his resurrection, Jesus commanded his apostles to baptize ([[Matthew]] 28: 18)<br /> <br /> :''Then Jesus came to them and said, &quot;All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.''<br /> <br /> His disciples followed this command and throughout the book of the Acts there are many examples of baptism. On the day of Pentecost, Peter stood before the crowd and proclaimed the gospel and 3,000 people accepted the message that day and were baptized<br /> <br /> After Paul's conversion on the road to Damascus, he was an active preacher of the Gospel. One day, He was thrown into prison at Philippi after healing a slave girl. That night whilst they were praying, there was a violent earthquake and he was able to walk free. The terrified jailer awoke, and the story continues in [[Acts]] 16: 31-34<br /> <br /> :''He (the jailer) then brought them out and asked, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? They replied, Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved - you and your household. Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house. At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his family were baptized. The jailer brought them into his house and set a meal before them; he was filled with joy because he had come to believe in God - he and his whole family.''<br /> <br /> Later, when Paul was in Corinth, he proclaimed the Gospel to a man named Crispus. [[Acts]] 18: 8 states<br /> <br /> :''Crispus, the synagogue ruler, and his entire household believed in the Lord; and many of the Corinthians who heard him believed and were baptized.''<br /> <br /> <br /> ==Water baptism==<br /> <br /> When we talk about baptism, we usually mean, the event of water baptism. That is, water is either poured on an infant or a new adult believer or he is submerged within water, with words such as, &quot;I baptize you in the name of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost&quot; spoken. This is also what this chapter is referring to and concentrating on. However, it should be remembered that within the Bible, the word baptism is not always intended to be interpreted like this. In [[Matthew]] 3: 11, [[John the Baptist]] said<br /> <br /> :''I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful that I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.''<br /> <br /> In [[Luke]] 12: 49-50 Jesus spoke to his disciples, saying<br /> <br /> :''I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is completed!''<br /> <br /> He said this some time after he had been baptized by John with water, so clearly he wasn't referring to this.<br /> <br /> These verses show that the word baptism was used in more than one way by New Testament writers. Sometimes when I read verses about baptism, I wonder, can baptism be interpreted simply to mean the washing of our sins by Christ and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that occurs when a person becomes a Christian? Does it have to mean the actual event of having water poured over a new Christian? Can it sometimes merely be interpreted as being made clean from sin? Could a verse such as &quot;Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned&quot; just as truthfully be written as &quot;Whoever believes and is made clean from sin will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned&quot;?<br /> <br /> For the rest of this chapter, the term baptism is specifically used to denote water baptism.<br /> <br /> ==Is baptism necessary for salvation?==<br /> <br /> The [[Roman Catholicism|Roman Catholic]], [[Eastern Orthodoxy|Orthodox]] and some [[Protestant churches|Protestant]] churches teach that baptism is necessary for [[Salvation]]. Many Protestant and [[Pentecostal churches]] teach that baptism is not necessary for salvation. The belief that water baptism actually saves a person is known as baptismal regeneration. Essentially, Roman, Orthodox and certain Protestant traditions tell us that we are not Christians if we are not baptized. Other Protestant and Pentecostal churches tell us that we can be a Christian without being baptized. Why is there this difference?<br /> <br /> It is vital to realize that the question of the necessity of baptism for salvation is completely different from the question, &quot;Should we be baptized?&quot; I would be surprised if any Christian claimed that we shouldn't be baptized. It is almost universally agreed by all Christians regardless of denomination that all Christians should be baptized. Jesus commanded his apostles in the Great Commission to make disciples from all the nations and baptize them ([[Matthew]] 28: 18).<br /> <br /> I believe that at the root of this difference in opinion about baptism's relationship to salvation is the question of [[Justification]] by faith alone, or by faith plus works.<br /> <br /> The Orthodox and Roman Churches teach that justification is by faith plus works. The teaching is that a Christian is saved from his sin by his faith in Christ, but he needs to confirm his salvation by good works. The Church itself has the power to forgive sins by administering its sacraments, which include the Lord's supper (the Mass) and baptism. The [[Catholic Catechism]] states that<br /> <br /> :''Our Lord tied the forgiveness of sins to faith and Baptism... Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ...''<br /> <br /> The teaching is clear that the action of baptism itself brings about the cleansing of sin. For again the Catechism states<br /> <br /> :''This sacrament signifies and actually brings about the birth of water and the Spirit without which no one can enter the kingdom of God... The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation''<br /> <br /> The Orthodox teaching is very similar. In an official internet site, the following statement is made<br /> <br /> :''The way of entry into the Christian Church is by baptism in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.''<br /> <br /> The Protestant churches teach that [[Justification]] is through faith in Christ alone, and that no works can earn or are needed to earn salvation. Most Protestant and Pentecostal Christians, conservative and liberal alike, believe that baptism is an outward symbol of cleansing of sin and spiritual rebirth that occurs when a person puts his faith in Christ. It is generally felt that water baptism itself is not required for salvation, but that Christians are baptized as a public witness or sign of that salvation and rebirth. However, this is not necessarily the official teachings of some denominations. The Anglican, Lutheran and Uniting Churches all teach that baptism is in someway required for salvation. [[The 39 articles of faith of Anglican church]] makes the following statement regarding baptism<br /> <br /> :''Baptism is not only a sign of profession, and mark of difference, whereby Christian men are discerned from others that be not christened, but it is also a sign of Regeneration or New-Birth, whereby, as by an instrument, they that receive Baptism rightly are grafted into the Church; the promises of the forgiveness of sin, and of our adoption to be the sons of God by the Holy Ghost, are visibly signed and sealed, Faith is confirmed, and Grace increased by virtue of prayer unto God.''<br /> <br /> The Uniting Church of Australia teaches that<br /> <br /> :''Baptism is an effective sign of a relationship with Jesus and with the church.''<br /> <br /> Although these statements could be interpreted in different ways, the Uniting Church of Australia, in a joint statement with the Anglican Church, also explains<br /> <br /> :''Both churches believe that through baptism with water, in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, we are united with Christ in his death and resurrection, incorporated into the body of Christ, the Church, and receive the gracious gift of forgiveness of sins and new life in the Spirit.''<br /> <br /> [[Martin Luther]] wrote about the necessity of baptism, and the Lutheran Church of today continues to teach that baptism is the means by which a Christian is forgiven. Luther wrote<br /> <br /> :''Baptism is no human trifle, but is instituted by God Himself, moreover, that it is most solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we cannot be saved.''<br /> <br /> An official Lutheran website comments on baptism<br /> <br /> :''It (baptism) works forgiveness of sins, delivers from death and the devil, and gives eternal salvation to all who believe this, as the words and promises of God declare.''<br /> <br /> Although these three denominations teach that the act of baptism imparts forgiveness, this is not the commonly held belief of many Christians who attend these churches. These Christians tend to have the same understanding of baptism, to that of the teaching of the Baptist churches. It is an interesting fact, that a denomination which emphasises the importance of baptism to the extent that it is known as “Baptist”, actually clearly teaches that baptism does not save. A website of the Southern Baptist churches in America states that<br /> <br /> :''It (baptism) is an act of obedience symbolizing the believer's faith in a crucified, buried, and risen Saviour, the believer's death to sin, the burial of the old life, and the resurrection to walk in newness of life in Christ Jesus. It is a testimony to his faith in the final resurrection of the dead.''<br /> <br /> The [[United Methodist Church]] in the United States also teaches that baptism is a sign of faith, and not the means of salvation<br /> <br /> :''Baptism is not only a sign of profession and mark of difference whereby Christians are distinguished from others that are not baptized; but it is also a sign of regeneration or the new birth.''<br /> <br /> Pentecostal churches mostly teach that baptism is to be performed on believers and as such is a symbolic act of faith. The [[The Assemblies of God|Assemblies of God]] state in their [[Summary of beliefs of the Assemblies of God|Official Statement of Fundamental Truths]] that<br /> <br /> :''Water Baptism by Immersion is practiced after repenting of one's sins and receiving Christ's gift of salvation''<br /> <br /> So, there is a wide gap in official teaching about baptism between different denominations. The teaching of any church seems to fall into one of two categories – either rebirth is through faith, or rebirth is through baptism. I believe that it is inconsistent to proclaim that justification is through faith alone, and then to suggest baptism with water is required for the forgiveness of sins. Accordingly, the Protestant churches that teach the necessity of baptism contradict themselves when they also teach that we are made completely acceptable to God by our faith in Christ alone.<br /> <br /> The underlying theme of the New Testament is simply that Jesus saves. [[John 3:16]]-18 states that<br /> <br /> :''For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.''<br /> <br /> In this passage, along with many others throughout the [[New Testament]], there is no pronouncement that baptism is required for salvation. Belief in the gospel saves. Baptism is not even mentioned in these passages. Paul wrote that he came to preach the gospel and not to baptize. In [[1 Corinthians]] 1: 17<br /> <br /> :''For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel - not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.''<br /> <br /> And further in that letter he explains the gospel ([[1 Corinthians]] 15: 1-4)<br /> <br /> :''Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.''<br /> <br /> If baptism is needed for our salvation, then why has Paul written that he did not come baptize? It is because Paul wanted the Corinthians to know that it wasn't baptism that saved them, but it was faith in Jesus as Lord. To the Romans, Paul wrote ([[Romans]] 10: 9-13)<br /> <br /> :''9-10 That if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved... 13 Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.''<br /> <br /> The [[Bible]] tells us that Christ makes us righteous when we place our faith in Him. This is the good news. To suggest that we need to be baptized with water before our sins are removed from us, is to say that faith in Christ by itself is not enough. It means that I was not forgiven of my sins just one minute before my baptism even though I had long ago placed my faith in Christ. It means that just one minute later, following my immersion in water, my sins were removed and I was acceptable to God. I can never accept this, because I know in my heart that I was justified and saved when I placed my faith in Christ. I know that the Holy Spirit lived in me in those minutes and days before my baptism with water. And I know that I can also find examples in the Bible of the Holy Spirit living in people before their baptism with water. In the book of Acts, Cornelius and his household were filled with the Holy Spirit whilst Peter preached the Gospel to them. And so Peter said ([[Acts]] 10: 47)<br /> <br /> :''Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.''<br /> <br /> Christians who teach the necessity of baptism however often point to Bible passages that seem to imply baptism does save. There are some verses that do seem to suggest this, and each Christian should read these and honestly examine them himself. In [[Acts]] 22, Paul recounted his conversion. In Damascus, after Jesus revealed himself to Paul, Ananias instructed Paul ([[Acts]] 22: 16)<br /> <br /> :''And now, what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized, and wash away your sins calling on his (Jesus') name''<br /> <br /> The important question here is, is the washing away of sin done by baptism or is it done by calling on Jesus name? The passage should perhaps be written &quot;And now, what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized. Wash away your sins calling on his name&quot; as it is the washing away of sins and the calling on Jesus' name that are linked in this verse. It is the calling on the name of Jesus that washes our sin, not the physical act of water baptism.<br /> <br /> Mark wrote ([[Mark]] 16: 15-16)<br /> <br /> :''He (Jesus) said to them, Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.''<br /> <br /> Mark has written that whoever does not believe is condemned. If baptism was needed, then why has he not written whoever does not believe or whoever is not baptized will be condemned? To use the first part of the verse to justify the necessity of baptism for salvation, while ignoring the second part of the verse, is wrong.<br /> <br /> When [[Nicodemus]] came to [[Jesus]] by night, Jesus told him ([[John]] 3: 5-7)<br /> <br /> :''I tell you the truth, no-one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, &quot;You must be born again.&quot;''<br /> <br /> Some Christians assume that &quot;water&quot; refers to baptism. However, I believe that Nicodemus who was a teacher of the Law would have understood water in terms of the [[Old Testament]]. Christian baptism is not referred to in the Old Testament, so Nicodemus would not have understood it in this way. Being born of water could be interpreted as meaning being purified. There is no reason to automatically assume water means baptism here.<br /> <br /> There are a few other verses that also can seem to suggest baptism is required for salvation. However, I believe that if these are read with the whole context of the [[New Testament]] in mind, then they can be understood entirely differently. But I don't just appeal to the Bible to show that baptism is not required for salvation. Here are three true stories / examples<br /> <br /> :My sister's boyfriend was raised in a Hindu household. He began coming to Church as a young adult. He quietly listened to sermons, songs and prayers, and one day, he knew - he knew that he believed that he was a sinner and that Jesus had died in place of him, for his sins, and that Jesus was his only way to the Father. That was almost one year ago. He now has a strong and growing faith and calls himself a Christian. However, he hasn't been baptized yet. Is he Christian? Is he saved? Is he in Christ, and Christ in him?<br /> <br /> :My wife's friend was baptized as an infant. She regularly attended Church as a young child. However, in high-school she decided that she did not believe in God. She is an atheist to this day. She has been baptized. Is she a Christian? Is she saved? Is she in Christ, and Christ in her?<br /> <br /> :I was raised in a Christian household. I always called myself a Christian. As I became a teenager, I began examining my beliefs and knew that I believed I was a sinner and that on the cross, Jesus had died for my sins. My parents encouraged me to be baptized, and I was baptized. Prior to my baptism, was I a Christian? Was I in Christ and Christ in me? Was I saved?<br /> <br /> ==What about infant baptism?==<br /> <br /> The practice of baptizing infants can be traced in history back to the third century after Christ. Prior to this, [[Infant Baptism]] may have occurred, but there are no clear records of it. In the centuries after this, infant baptism became almost universal in Christendom. From around the time of the reformation different groups of Christians ceased its practice, and would only baptize those old enough to believe in Christ - this is usually referred to as &quot;believer's baptism&quot;. Today, [[Eastern Orthodoxy|Orthodox]], [[Roman Catholicism|Catholic]] and many [[Protestant churches|Protestant]] denominations (including [[Anglican church|Anglican]], [[Uniting Church]], [[Lutheran church|Lutheran]]) baptize infants. Many Protestant and [[Pentecostal churches|Pentocostal]] denominations (including [[Baptist churches|Baptists]], [[The Assemblies of God|Assemblies of God]]) do not baptize infants.<br /> <br /> In the [[Bible]], there is no definite example of a child being baptized, but there are also passages that many Christians believe imply children were baptized. For example, in [[Acts]] 16: 31-34, the jailer and all his family were baptized.<br /> <br /> :''He (the jailer) then brought them out and asked, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? They replied, Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved - you and your household. Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house. At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his family were baptized. The jailer brought them into his house and set a meal before them; he was filled with joy because he had come to believe in God - he and his whole family.''<br /> <br /> The jailer presumably had young children, and if all his family was baptized, then this suggests his children would also have been baptized. However, the passage also states that &quot;they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house&quot; and that &quot;he had come to believe in God - he and his whole family&quot;. Both of these suggest that there weren't any infant involved, because (1) you don't speak to infants and (2) infants aren't able to believe abstract concepts.<br /> <br /> Most Christians who believe that baptism is an act undertaken symbolizing belief and rebirth, feel that infant baptism makes no sense. Many of these Christians make a public declaration that they will raise their child teaching him about Christ. This is called a &quot;dedication&quot;.<br /> <br /> For Christians who believe that baptism is a regenerative act, where an individual is actually washed of his [[Sin]], infant baptism makes perfect sense. If baptism with water brings about God's grace, then an infant who dies without it, dies stained with sin, but an infant who dies baptized, dies cleaned of sin. As the [[Catholic Catechism]] puts it<br /> <br /> :''As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them... Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: &quot;Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,&quot; allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.''<br /> <br /> ==The Anabaptists and Baptists==<br /> <br /> From the dark ages until the reformation, baptismal regeneration was taught and infant baptism practiced almost universally. At the time of the [[Reformation]] in the early sixteenth century, some Christians in Switzerland formed a movement that was labeled [[Anabaptist]], which meant re-baptizer. They rejected infant baptism, believing baptism was a symbolic act that should be performed on confession of faith. Anabaptists reached out with missionary vigour to Europe (mostly German-speaking Europe), but were heavily persecuted by both Protestant and Catholic churches. Thousands of Anabaptists were murdered and as time passed, their numbers dwindled. Today, only small communities of [[Mennonite]] and Hutterite Anabaptists remain in Europe and North America.<br /> <br /> A century after the beginning of the Anabaptist movement, members of independent English churches began teaching and practicing believer's baptism. These Christians became known as the English Baptists, and from them, Baptist thinking spread to North America. Other traditional Protestant churches, including the [[Anglican church|Anglican]] and [[Lutheran church|Lutheran]] churches did not adopt this viewpoint, and the Catholic and Orthodox churches also continue to teach in baptismal regeneration and practice infant baptism.<br /> <br /> ==Conclusion==<br /> <br /> Different denominations have different teachings and practices regarding baptism. These are important issues that all Christians should examine, especially the question of whether baptism is a saving act or instead a symbol. However, we shouldn't let issues of baptism cause bitter divisions in the Christian Church as it has in the past. Instead we should go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them as [[Jesus]] commanded, teaching that Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of [[God]] ([[1 John]] 5: 1)<br /> <br /> <br /> ==Official teachings about baptism in different denominations==<br /> <br /> '''What does baptism by water mean and is it required for salvation? What is the official teaching od different denominations?'''<br /> <br /> ''Roman Catholic and Orthodox'' - Baptism is the washing of a Christian's sin and the start of his life in Christ. It is required for his salvation<br /> <br /> ''Many Protestant denominations, including Baptists and Pentecostal denominations'' - Baptism is an outward representation of the inner washing of sin that occurred when a Christian first believed. It is not required for salvation<br /> <br /> ''Many Pentecostal and many Protestant churches, including Anglicans and Lutherans'' - Baptism is the washing of a Christian's sin and start of his life in Christ. It is required for his salvation.<br /> <br /> <br /> '''What about infant baptism?'''<br /> <br /> ''Roman Catholic'' - Infant baptism practiced<br /> <br /> ''Orthodox'' - Infant baptism practiced<br /> <br /> ''Many Protestant churches - including Anglican, Uniting Church, Lutheran'' - Infant baptism practiced<br /> <br /> ''Many Protestant churches - including Baptists'' - Believer's baptism only (baptism of adults and older children who accept the Gospel)<br /> <br /> ''Most Pentecostal churches'' - Believer's baptism only<br /> <br /> <br /> ----<br /> <br /> <br /> By [[Graham Llewellyn Grove]]<br /> <br /> <br /> ----<br /> <br /> <br /> Go to [[Baptism]] contents page</div> Ymmotrojam http://www.wikichristian.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Jehovah%27s_Witnesses_and_John_1:1_(G.G.)&diff=142618 Jehovah's Witnesses and John 1:1 (G.G.) 2006-11-26T04:52:01Z <p>Ymmotrojam: Jehovah's Witnesses and and the deity of Christ: Examining John 1:1 (G.G.) moved to User:Graham grove/JWs and the deity of Christ - Examining John 1:1</p> <hr /> <div>#REDIRECT [[User:Graham grove/JWs and the deity of Christ - Examining John 1:1]]</div> Ymmotrojam http://www.wikichristian.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=User_talk:Graham_grove/JWs_and_the_deity_of_Christ_-_Examining_John_1:1&diff=142619 User talk:Graham grove/JWs and the deity of Christ - Examining John 1:1 2006-11-26T04:52:01Z <p>Ymmotrojam: Talk:Jehovah's Witnesses and and the deity of Christ: Examining John 1:1 (G.G.) moved to User talk:Graham grove/JWs and the deity of Christ - Examining John 1:1</p> <hr /> <div>Wow definitely a biased website...that's a bold inference that you folks have &quot;the truth&quot; about the nature of Jesus. [[User:TheTruth|TheTruth]] 13:01, 7 Jan 2006 (EST)<br /> <br /> Yeah, I agree this is a biased website, but is that necessarily a bad thing? This website has been created by Christians and mainly for Christians and so is going to have a slant in a particular direction. Every contributor has some sort of background bias. This website is intented to have both information articles and opinion articles. You're quite welcome to leave your opinion by writing an article (on what the Jehovah's Witness teaching about the deity of Christ is or on any other topic), just create a link to it under the '''Articles and opinions''' section - we're currently updating the layout, and I've just updated the page [[Jehovah's Witnesses and Jesus]]). In addition to the &quot;opinion&quot; style articles, there are also meant to be encyclopedia or information articles. By all means, these should be from a neutral point of view, and so if they are not, then they need to be changed. (We're also slowly getting rid of locked paged - they were all locked at one stage because of an enormous amount of vandalism; unfortunately the one you've come accross just happened to still be locked by accident). Good luck. --[[User:Muser|Muser]] 13:56, 7 Jan 2006 (EST)</div> Ymmotrojam http://www.wikichristian.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Talk:Jehovah%27s_Witnesses_and_John_1:1_(G.G.)&diff=142620 Talk:Jehovah's Witnesses and John 1:1 (G.G.) 2006-11-26T04:52:01Z <p>Ymmotrojam: Talk:Jehovah's Witnesses and and the deity of Christ: Examining John 1:1 (G.G.) moved to User talk:Graham grove/JWs and the deity of Christ - Examining John 1:1</p> <hr /> <div>#REDIRECT [[User talk:Graham grove/JWs and the deity of Christ - Examining John 1:1]]</div> Ymmotrojam http://www.wikichristian.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=User:Graham_grove/Division_or_freedom_in_diversity&diff=142615 User:Graham grove/Division or freedom in diversity 2006-11-26T04:50:53Z <p>Ymmotrojam: My conclusions: Division or freedom in diversity (G.G.) moved to User:Graham grove/Division or freedom in diversity</p> <hr /> <div>''Concluded remarks from the article [[ An overview of the main denominations and the history of the Christian Church (By G.G.)]]''<br /> <br /> <br /> Sometimes when I look at the sheer number of denominations I feel sad. Can there be so much disagreement among Christians? If there was a unified organization could we spread the Gospel so much more? Do these divisions turn people away from Christ's love? If only all the denominations could fuse together for a single Church?<br /> <br /> <br /> But then I remember, there is only a single Church! The Church is the body of believers redeemed by Christ. Do these partitions only cause division, or can they allow each Christian to examine his own beliefs and find a place to worship as truthfully as he can? Perhaps they lead to both. At their worst they allow people to form unnecessary allegiances that divide relationships and dull the mind. Sometimes a person is loyal to a denomination at the expense of considering the issues for himself. And sometimes too much focus on an issue distracts from the Gospel. However, at their best, denominations promote a greater understanding of our faith and allow us to explore what we believe and why - they encourage the pursuit of truth.<br /> <br /> <br /> So it is true that the Christian churches have many divisions, but we are certainly all united in the one Church.<br /> <br /> <br /> ----<br /> <br /> <br /> By [[Graham Llewellyn Grove]]</div> Ymmotrojam http://www.wikichristian.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Thoughts_on_creation_science_and_evolution_(By_G.G.)&diff=142614 Thoughts on creation science and evolution (By G.G.) 2006-11-26T04:50:04Z <p>Ymmotrojam: Redirecting to User:Graham grove/Thoughts on creation science and evolution</p> <hr /> <div>#REDIRECT [[User:Graham grove/Thoughts on creation science and evolution]]</div> Ymmotrojam http://www.wikichristian.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Problems_with_Purgatory,_prayers_for_the_dead_and_indulgences_(G.G.)&diff=142611 Problems with Purgatory, prayers for the dead and indulgences (G.G.) 2006-11-26T04:49:24Z <p>Ymmotrojam: The problems with Purgatory, prayers for the dead and indulgences (G.G.) moved to User:Graham grove/Problems with Purgatory, prayers for the dead and indulgences</p> <hr /> <div>#REDIRECT [[User:Graham grove/Problems with Purgatory, prayers for the dead and indulgences]]</div> Ymmotrojam http://www.wikichristian.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=User:Graham_grove/Problems_with_Purgatory,_prayers_for_the_dead_and_indulgences&diff=142610 User:Graham grove/Problems with Purgatory, prayers for the dead and indulgences 2006-11-26T04:49:24Z <p>Ymmotrojam: The problems with Purgatory, prayers for the dead and indulgences (G.G.) moved to User:Graham grove/Problems with Purgatory, prayers for the dead and indulgences</p> <hr /> <div>{{box | text=This article is an opinion article by [[Graham Llewellyn Grove]]}}<br /> <br /> <br /> {{quote | text=Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus}}<br /> <br /> <br /> ==Introduction==<br /> <br /> I was aged 22 when I attended a [[Roman Catholic]] church service. I clearly recall my first thought after the service - Why did we pray for the dead?<br /> <br /> Before this experience, I had never heard of purgatory, and had never known that people [[prayed for the dead]]. To me it didn't make sense to pray for those who had died - either they had been saved and were with [[Christ]], or they did not have a right relationship with God and were eternally separated from him.<br /> <br /> I needed to know more.<br /> <br /> ==What is purgatory?==<br /> <br /> The notion of purgatory is a belief that is unique to the Roman Catholic Church. Other Christian denominations reject the concept.<br /> <br /> The Roman Catholic Church teaches that purgatory is a place or state of punishment that occurs after death for Christians before they can enter [[heaven]]. Through this punishment the Christian is refined and purified, and once pure, he is fit for heaven. It is not [[hell]], because hell is a permanent state - eternal separation from God. Purgatory is only a temporary state, and once purified, the Christian enters heaven.<br /> <br /> The [[Catechism of the Catholic Church]] states: <br /> <br /> : ''All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation, but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.''<br /> <br /> The [[Second Vatican Council]] stated:<br /> <br /> : ''The truth has been divinely revealed that sins are followed by punishments. God's holiness and justice inflict them. Sins must be expiated. This may be done on this earth through the sorrows, miseries and trials of this life and, above all, through death. Otherwise the expiation must be made in the next life through fire and torments or purifying punishments.''<br /> <br /> The word &quot;purgatory&quot; is not found in the [[Bible]], so where did this belief come from?<br /> <br /> Writings about purgatory can be found from third century onward. The doctrine was established by [[Gregory the Great]] in 604. Belief in purgatory was widespread in the Middle Ages and Christians in this age were plagued with the fear of death because of it. However, at the [[Council of Florence]] in 1439 the Greek church declared that belief in purgatory was an irreconcilable differences between them and Rome. The existence of purgatory along with justification by faith plus works was denied by the Luther and the reformers in the sixteenth century and has never been part of the Protestant beliefs.<br /> <br /> ==Prayers to the dead==<br /> <br /> According to Catholic doctrine, the amount of time a Christian spends in purgatory varies, and is reduced by the prayers of the faithful on earth. In other words, when Christians on earth pray for people who have died, they are apparently reducing the amount of time spent these people spend in purgatory. The [[Council of Trent]] affirmed this with<br /> <br /> : ''We constantly hold that purgatory exists, and that the souls of the faithful there detained are helped by the prayers of the faithful.''<br /> <br /> ==[[Indulgence]]s==<br /> <br /> Catholicism teaches that if a person performs certain acts, including saying the rosary or helping someone in need, then his time in purgatory will be lessened. This is called an indulgence.<br /> <br /> During the Middle Ages, a trade in indulgences developed known as &quot;the holy trade&quot;. People would pay money and in return their [[sin]]s would be absolved. It was this trade that prompted [[Martin Luther]] to examine his faith and resulted in his &quot;95 theses on the disputation on the power and efficacy of indulgences&quot; where he attacked the sale of indulgences and ultimately resulted in the Protestant Church being borne in which purgatory was denied and justification by faith alone was proclaimed.<br /> <br /> Indulgences remain to this day in the Catholic Church.<br /> <br /> ==The problem of purgatory==<br /> <br /> &quot;It is finished&quot;. These were the last words of Jesus before he died on the Cross. [[John 19:30]] tells us<br /> <br /> : ''Jesus said, &quot;It is finished&quot;. With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.''<br /> <br /> <br /> &quot;It is finished&quot; has been translated from the Greek word &quot;[[tetelestai]]&quot;. This word was used in ancient Greece as a receipt for taxes, meaning that a debt had been paid in full. What did Jesus mean? What had been paid in full?<br /> <br /> Not only is any explicit discussion of purgatory not found in the Bible, but it also runs against the whole theme of the [[New Testament]]. Paul wrote in [[Romans 6:23]]<br /> <br /> : ''For the wages of sin is death''<br /> <br /> When Christ died, he was paying for our sins. He was receiving our wages, our death. He was paying for our debt, in full.<br /> <br /> Paul also wrote in [[Romans 8:1]]<br /> <br /> : ''Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus''<br /> <br /> If Christ paid for our debt in full and there is no condemnation in Christ, then how can purgatory be required or real? And it follows that without purgatory there is no basis in praying for the dead.<br /> <br /> ==Maccabees==<br /> <br /> In defense of prayer for the dead, the Roman Catholic Church appeals to [[2 Maccabees]].<br /> <br /> 2 Maccabees is one of the books of the [[apocrypha]] and is not considered part of the [[canon of Scripture]] in the [[Protestantism|Protestant churches]]. However, it is included in the Bible within the Catholic Church.<br /> <br /> The 12th chapter of 2 Maccabees describes how some soldiers die in battle because they took and wore idols. Judas, the army's leader, took up a collection of money to provide a sin offering. The book then commends this collection with<br /> <br /> : ''In doing this he acted very well and honourably, taking account of the resurrection. For if her were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, so that they might be delivered from their sin.''<br /> <br /> This passage does encourage prayer for the dead. However, it also contradicts Roman Catholic doctrine by suggesting that the soldiers will eventually reach heaven despite the fact that they were in possession of idols. Catholicism teaches that idolatry is a mortal sin, not a venial sin - and as a mortal sin the soldiers would have gone immediately to hell upon dying.<br /> <br /> [[2 Maccabees 15]]:37-38 ends with<br /> <br /> : ''So I will here end my story. If it is well told and to the point, that is what I myself desired; if it is poorly done and mediocre, that was the best I could do.''<br /> <br /> With an ending such as this, it is hard to argue that the writer feels his work has been inspired by God or is God-breathed. Surely we need to be judicious in doctrine we can draw from 2 Maccabees.<br /> <br /> ==Conclusion==<br /> <br /> When I first heard prayers for the dead, I knew that I needed to know more. The more I learn about purgatory the more I'm brought back to the [[Gospel]]. For I know: There is no condemnation in Christ.<br /> <br /> ==Is purgatory real? What is the official teaching of different denominations?==<br /> <br /> [[Eastern Orthodox]] - No<br /> <br /> [[Roman Catholic]] - Yes<br /> <br /> [[Protestant]] - No<br /> <br /> [[Pentecostal]] - No<br /> <br /> {{returnto}} [[Purgatory]]</div> Ymmotrojam http://www.wikichristian.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=User_talk:Graham_grove/Problems_with_Purgatory,_prayers_for_the_dead_and_indulgences&diff=142612 User talk:Graham grove/Problems with Purgatory, prayers for the dead and indulgences 2006-11-26T04:49:24Z <p>Ymmotrojam: Talk:The problems with Purgatory, prayers for the dead and indulgences (G.G.) moved to User talk:Graham grove/Problems with Purgatory, prayers for the dead and indulgences</p> <hr /> <div>1) &quot;Purgatory is not discussed in the Bible, so where did this belief come from?&quot;<br /> <br /> Catholics believe that 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 refers to the state of Purgatory.<br /> <br /> 2) &quot;2 Maccabees is one of the books of the apocrypha and was never part of the canon of Scripture.&quot;<br /> <br /> It was part of Christian canon from the first formal determinations, including the Council of Rome in 382 AD, Council of Hippo in 393 AD, and the Second Council of Carthage in 397 AD.<br /> <br /> : Thanks. I've reworded the paragraphs and hopefully removed any incorrect facts. It now reads, &quot;The word 'purgatory' is not found in the Bible&quot;; and says that 2 Maccabees is not considered Scripture by Protestants. --[[User:Graham grove|Graham grove]] 00:03, 13 November 2006 (EST)</div> Ymmotrojam http://www.wikichristian.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Talk:Problems_with_Purgatory,_prayers_for_the_dead_and_indulgences_(G.G.)&diff=142613 Talk:Problems with Purgatory, prayers for the dead and indulgences (G.G.) 2006-11-26T04:49:24Z <p>Ymmotrojam: Talk:The problems with Purgatory, prayers for the dead and indulgences (G.G.) moved to User talk:Graham grove/Problems with Purgatory, prayers for the dead and indulgences</p> <hr /> <div>#REDIRECT [[User talk:Graham grove/Problems with Purgatory, prayers for the dead and indulgences]]</div> Ymmotrojam http://www.wikichristian.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Some_thoughts_on_modern-day_apparations_and_visions_(G.G.)&diff=142607 Some thoughts on modern-day apparations and visions (G.G.) 2006-11-26T04:48:19Z <p>Ymmotrojam: Some thoughts on modern-day apparations and visions (G.G.) moved to User:Graham grove/Modern-day apparations and visions</p> <hr /> <div>#REDIRECT [[User:Graham grove/Modern-day apparations and visions]]</div> Ymmotrojam http://www.wikichristian.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Modern-day_apparations_and_visions_(G.G.)&diff=142606 Modern-day apparations and visions (G.G.) 2006-11-26T04:48:18Z <p>Ymmotrojam: Some thoughts on modern-day apparations and visions (G.G.) moved to User:Graham grove/Modern-day apparations and visions</p> <hr /> <div>==Introduction==<br /> <br /> A grilled cheese toasted sandwich was sold for US $28,000 in November, 2004, on the electronic auction site, ebay.com. The toast was said to bear an image of the [[Virgin Mary]] on it. Can you believe that?! The woman who sold the cheese toast claimed that she grilled it 10 years ago. She said that she was about to take a bite into it when she saw the face of the Virgin Mary looking up at her - so she kept the toast, and it hasn't gone mouldy in 10 years. She also claims that it has brought her good luck, and that she has won over US $70,000 at the casino because of it. To me, something sounds awfully wrong about the whole story.<br /> <br /> [[Visions]] of the Virgin Mary have been occurring for a long time now. A quick search on the internet will find that there are hundreds of sites dedicated to these apparitions. Search again for apparitions of other people or things, and suddenly the list of websites becomes very small. Almost all the websites are of so-called Christian visions and apparitions. There are a few websites dedicated to the phenomenon of seeing big dark animals, called &quot;black dog apparitions&quot;. These apparitions have apparently been going on for centuries in England, but apart from these, there isn't much else out there being reported except by psychiatric patients. I couldn't find any literature of apparitions of [[Islam]]ic, [[Hindu]] or [[Buddhist]] origin, although I'd guess that visions to followers of these religions do occur from time to time.<br /> <br /> Most apparitions of the Virgin Mary tend to occur to members of the [[Roman Catholic Church]], although not all of them are accepted as true by the Roman Catholic heirarchy or indeed most parishoners. When a apparition is reported within the Roman Catholic church, often either the local bishop or a panel from the the [[Vatican]] formally investigates the claim These investigation typically include initially examining the lifestyle and forming a judgement of the mental state of the person claiming to have seen the vision as well as ensuring the apparition doesn't contradict the church's doctrine. If no problems have been found in the initial investigation, then further investigations are often conducted by the congregation before any final conclusions are made. One Catholic website stated that there were 386 cases of [[Marian apparitions]] reported in the 20th century. Of these, the Catholic church made &quot;no decision&quot; about 299 of the cases, made a &quot;negative decision&quot; about 79 cases, and stated that &quot;yes&quot;, a supernatural cause was behind 8 of the cases (Fatima in Portugal, Beauraing in Belgium, Banneux in Belgium, Akita in Japan, Syracuse in Italy, Zeitoun in Egypt, Manila in the Philippines and Betania in Venezuela). Even [[Pope John Paul II]] believes he saw a vision of Mary whilst recovering from an assination attempt in 1981. Apparitions, of course, are not exclusively reported within the Roman Catholic church. There have been numerous reports of visions of the Virgin Mary in the [[Eastern Orthodox]] and [[Oriental Orthodox]] churches, and a few in the [[Anglican Church]]. Visions of the future and hearing the voice of Christ are also reported in Pentecostal churches and in various Christian cults and off-shoots.<br /> <br /> Apparitions tend to fall into one of the two categories. There are those that stick around for other people to see, and those that don't.<br /> <br /> The vision of the Virgin Mary at [[Lourdes]] in [[France]] in 1858 is probably the most famous of the don't-stick-around type of apparitions. Here, a young girl named Bernadette Soubirous claimed to see Mary, who introduced herself as, &quot;The [[Immaculate conception|Immaculate Conception]]&quot;. Her companions with her could not see the vision, nor does anyone see Mary there today. However, millions of people visit the Lourdes each year, some out of curiousity, others as a personal pilgrimage after a religious experience.<br /> <br /> Many of the apparitions that appear however, do not disappear. These apparitions often only bear a vague resemblance to what they are claimed to represent. In [[South Australia]], in the small town of [[Yankalilla]], some Parishioners of the local Anglican Church noticed one day in 1994 that there appeared to be a impression of the Virgin Mary on the wall. Since then, this story has made the news on several occasion, and the parish priest, Father Nutter, has spoken of the numbers of people that have been healed of their illnesses when praying at the site. Many people who have visited the church have reported that they cannot see any impression of the Virgin Mary and that it simply looks like some peeling plaster. I've driven through Yankalilla a few times (I live in a city a couple hours away by car), and I certainly can't see any divine contribution to the plaster work of the wall. My personal opinion is that people see what they want to see in the wall, in the same way that if you stare at clouds for long enough, you can start to imagine you're looking at pictures of well, pretty much what-ever you want. But maybe that's just the sceptic in me.<br /> <br /> People who claim to have seen an apparition are often seem completely convinved that they have been witness to a miracle. But a bit of common-sense logic immediately reveals that a number of possibilities could account for these apparitions<br /> <br /> ==The whole story could be a hoax==<br /> <br /> How do you prove that an vision such as the one in Lourdes was a hoax? You can't. However, there have been quite a few instances in recent years where statues of [[Jesus]] have supposedly bled from the hands, or tears have been shed from the statue's eyes. With these sort of phenomenon it is often possible to examine for hoaxes. In May 2004, news spread of a plaster statue of Mary that was apparently seeping scented oil from its eyes. Thousands of people went to see this apparent miracle and so the Catholic Archibishop of Brisbane organised for the statue to be investigated scientifically to ensure this wasn't an elaborate hoax. A retired chemistry professor headed the investigation and found that the rose-scented oil was probably a commercially available preparation and that two very small holes had been drilled into the statue and that oils and other liquids could have been injected into these holes and slowly seeped out. The conclusion was that this &quot;miracle&quot; was a hoax.<br /> <br /> ==The person or people who tell the story have psychiatric disorders==<br /> <br /> Some people with psychotic disorders or very unusual personalities hear voices and sometimes see visions. Often these voices or visions are believed to be Jesus or Mary or other religious figures.<br /> <br /> ==The person or people who tell the story are simply misguided and wrong==<br /> <br /> People occasionally read more into an event or imagine more into a picture than is really there. On the wall in the church in Yankililla, some say that peeling plaster forms an image of the Virgin Mary and is a sign from [[God]]. Others can't see any particular image in it, and say that it is merely peeling plaster.<br /> <br /> In [[Jeremiah 23:16]], God saws, &quot;Do not listen to what the prophets are prophesying to you. They fill your heads with false hopes. They speak visions from their own minds and not from the mouth of the Lord.&quot;<br /> <br /> ==There really is a supernatural occurrence happening, but God isn't behind it==<br /> <br /> If there is a devil or there are many evil supernatural beings, then perhaps visions that are seen could be from these beings, and not from God. There were occasions in the Bible when the prophets of God were misled by evil. In [[Jeremiah 23:13]], God says, &quot;Among the prophets of Samaria I saw this repulsive thing - they prophesied by [[Baal]] and led my people Israel astray.&quot;<br /> <br /> ==God is source behind the apparition or vision==<br /> <br /> God appeared to [[Abraham]], [[Jacob]] and [[Joseph]] in the [[Old Testament]]. [[Christ]] appeared in a vision to [[apostle Paul|Paul]] as he was on the [[road to Damascus]] in the [[book of Acts]]. He sent a messengers to Mary and Joseph in the [[New Testament]]. I believe he still appears to and sends messengers to people today. There is a book called &quot;[[I dared to call him Father]]&quot; in which a Pakistani woman describes her conversion to Christianity from Islam after Christ visited her in a dream. Accounts like hers are not uncommon in the strict Islamic societies of the Middle East, and places like China where religious freedom is suppressed.<br /> <br /> I believe that the miracles described in the [[Bible]] occurred. I believe that Jesus healed the sick. I believe that God spoke to people in visions - at the end of this article some references of this in the Bible are listed. I believe that God still speaks to people in visions and heals the sick today. However, I also tend to be sceptical, and I think that most of these so-called modern day miracles are usually hoaxes or people's misguided conclusions. Some of the questions that come to mind are<br /> <br /> ===What is the purpose of an image of Mary on a wall or a similar phenomenon?===<br /> <br /> I do not understand why or how God would use an image of Mary to increase faith on earth. I do not know of any occasions in the Bible where God spoke through a picture. The closest example I can find is in the [[book of Daniel]] when God spoke to the king [[Belshazzar]] by writing a message on a wall - the message although unreadable to the king was explained by Daniel. In other words, there was a specific point to the message - and this is something that I cannot see in image of Mary on a wall.<br /> <br /> ===Why does the apparition almost always involve Mary?===<br /> <br /> Some people believe that Mary deserves a place of special honour by Christians. Some people even believe that she petitions God on our account. I think this is a false teaching, and that Mary was no different than any other person - she was a sinner who needed God's [[salvation]] through Christ's death on the cross. Taking that approach, then the fact that Mary is appearing doesn't make any sense at all - there is no special reason why the apparition should be Mary. And when the vision of Mary makes claims that I believe are false doctrine, such as the one at Lourdes where the vision claimed to be the &quot;Immaculate Conception&quot;, then I do certainly cannot believe that the vision is genuine or that it is of Mary. However, for people who place a special emphasis on the Virgin Mary and believe in the truth of teachings such as the Immaculate Conception, then there is no reason to immediately be dubious of a claim of a vision of Mary. Indeed, in the Bible, many of the visions where of messengers from God - we often call them angels. Not much information is given about these messengers in the Bible. However, all of the accounts in the Bible seem quite different from the accounts of apparitions of Mary today. Interestingly, all of the messengers are men. Most do not give their name and none of them are recognised as people who had previously lived and died. The messenger who comes to tell about the coming birth of [[John the Baptist]] and Jesus is called Gabriel, but again, he isn't recognised as an important figure from Old Testament times. The only occasion where people from the Old Testament are seen is in the account of the Transfiguration, where Peter, James and John see Jesus talking with Elijah and Moses. So it seems that there is nothing similar in the Bible to today's apparitions of Mary.<br /> <br /> ===Why does the apparition of Mary only slightly resemble her?===<br /> <br /> When the appearance of Mary is photographed, the picture often looks like it could be anything. I had to laugh as I was crawling throug the web for photographs taken of apparitions. There was on description of an event that happened in [[Zeitoun]], Egypt in 1968 where thousands of people, the website claimed, saw an apparition of the Virgin Mary outside a [[Coptic church]]. The website prowdly displayed a photograph entitled &quot;Actual Picture&quot;. Take a look below and see the photograph - do you think it looks genuine?<br /> <br /> [[Image:Zeitun_mary.jpg]]<br /> <br /> I'm not even sure what I'm looking at in that photo. But I'm convinved that when God performs a miracle, it is obviously a miracle. A light that is vaguely in the shape of a person, or some plaster or marks on a wall that look a bit like a woman's face don't sound genuine to me.<br /> <br /> We don't hear about apparitions and visions very often. Christ isn't calling for us to put our faith in a vision or an apparition. He calls us to have faith in him, to follow him and to proclaim what he's done and is doing today.<br /> <br /> ==Some times God sent visions or messengers in the Bible==<br /> <br /> [[Genesis 15:1]] - After this, the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision: &quot;Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield<br /> <br /> [[Genesis 46:2]] - And God spoke to Israel (Jacob) in a vision at night<br /> <br /> [[1 Samuel 3:1]] - In those days the word of the LORD was rare; there were not many visions.<br /> <br /> [[Isaiah 1:1]] - The vision concerning Judah and Jerusalem that Isaiah son of Amoz saw<br /> <br /> [[Jeremiah 23:16]] - This is what the LORD Almighty says: &quot;Do not listen to what the prophets are prophesying to you; they fill you with false hopes. They speak visions from their own minds, not from the mouth of the LORD<br /> <br /> [[Ezekial 1:1]] - In my thirtieth year, in the fourth month on the fifth day, while I was among the exiles by the Kebar River, the heavens were opened and I saw visions of God<br /> <br /> [[Ezekiel 13:6]] - Their visions are false and their divinations a lie<br /> <br /> <br /> [[Daniel 4:5]] - I had a dream that made me afraid. As I was lying in my bed, the images and visions that passed through my mind terrified me.<br /> <br /> <br /> [[Daniel 5:5]] - Suddenly the fingers of a human hand appeared and wrote on the plaster of the wall, near the lampstand in the royal palace. The king watched the hand as it wrote.<br /> <br /> <br /> [[Joel 2:28]] - And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions.<br /> <br /> [[Zechariah 1:8]] - During the night I had a vision-and there before me was a man riding a red horse! He was standing among the myrtle trees in a ravine. Behind him were red, brown and white horses.<br /> <br /> [[Matthew 17:1]] - After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.<br /> <br /> [[Luke 1:19]] - The angel answered, &quot;I am Gabriel. I stand in the presence of God, and I have been sent to speak to you and to tell you this good news.<br /> <br /> [[Luke 24:4]] - While they were wondering about this, suddenly two men in clothes that gleamed like lightning stood beside them.<br /> <br /> [[Acts 2:17]] - In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.<br /> <br /> [[Acts 9:10]] - The Lord called to him in a vision, &quot;Ananias!&quot; &quot;Yes, Lord,&quot; he answered<br /> <br /> [[Acts 9:12]] - In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias come and place his hands on him to restore his sight.<br /> <br /> [[Acts 10:3]] - One day at about three in the afternoon he had a vision. He distinctly saw an angel of God, who came to him and said, &quot;Cornelius!&quot;<br /> <br /> [[Acts 16:9]] - During the night Paul had a vision of a man of Macedonia standing and begging him, &quot;Come over to Macedonia and help us.&quot;<br /> <br /> [[Acts 18:9]] - One night the Lord spoke to Paul in a vision: &quot;Do not be afraid; keep on speaking, do not be silent.<br /> <br /> [[Revelation 9:17]] - The horses and riders I saw in my vision looked like this: Their breastplates were fiery red, dark blue, and yellow as sulfur. The heads of the horses resembled the heads of lions, and out of their mouths came fire, smoke and sulfur.<br /> <br /> <br /> ----<br /> <br /> <br /> By [[Graham Llewellyn Grove]]<br /> <br /> {{returnto}} [[Apparitions and visions]]</div> Ymmotrojam http://www.wikichristian.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Problems_with_pluralism_(G.G.)&diff=142604 Problems with pluralism (G.G.) 2006-11-26T04:47:38Z <p>Ymmotrojam: Some problems with pluralism and the belief that all religions lead to God (by G.G.) moved to User:Graham grove/Some problems with pluralism and the belief that all religions lead to God</p> <hr /> <div>''Jesus answered, &quot;I am the way and the truth and the life. No-one comes to the Father except through me&quot;... John 14: 6''<br /> <br /> <br /> ----<br /> <br /> To me, the crucifixion of Jesus Christ is the most staggering and terrible event in human history. It is also the most necessary.<br /> <br /> <br /> Bruce Barton described the last hours of Jesus' life in his book, '''&quot;The man nobody knows&quot;''' from the early 20th century.<br /> <br /> <br /> ''His spirit was torn with agony. He was young, 33. He cried out to God that the cup might pass from His lips, that He might have time to sweep away the charges of blasphemy and evil which His enemies had heaped on Him, time to build up the fragile stuff of His little band on whom the whole future of His message must depend. So He prayed in agony, and in a little while returned to find them sleeping. Even so short a vigil was too much for their feebleness.''<br /> <br /> <br /> ''Again He withdrew. Now the courage which had never deserted Him throughout the three years was clearing His soul, steadying His nerves. &quot;If it be not Thy will that this cup pass from me,&quot; He prayed, &quot;then, Father, Thy will be done.&quot; He went back and found the disciples asleep. For the third time He went a little way off. Now, with the calm peace of the conqueror, He could make ready for the end. Now it was full victory after battle. On rejoining them this time, He startled them all wide awake with the ringing word that the crucial hour was at hand.''<br /> <br /> <br /> ''The soldiers were already at the entrance of the garden. From the side of the hill He could mark the progress of their torches across the brook and up the path. He waited until the armed men stumbled into His presence and then rose and stood before them. ''<br /> <br /> <br /> ''&quot;Whom seek ye?&quot; He demanded.''<br /> <br /> <br /> ''Startled, awed, they could only mumble His name. &quot;Jesus of Nazareth.&quot;''<br /> <br /> <br /> ''&quot;I am He.&quot;''<br /> <br /> <br /> ''Such calm, such dignity, went beyond the boundaries of their experience. Involuntarily they gave way and, rough veterans that they were, some of them &quot;fell to the ground.&quot; ''<br /> <br /> <br /> ''&quot;I told you,&quot; He repeated calmly, &quot;that I am He.&quot; And then His thoughts turned at once to those who had shared His triumphs and His sacrifices: &quot;If therefore ye seek me let these others go their way.&quot; But He had no need to think of the disciples' safety. Already they had made their swift escape - the last of the deserters. First His hometown. Then His relatives. Then the crowd. Finally the 11. All had gone. He was left to face His fate alone.''<br /> <br /> <br /> ''On a barren hill beyond the city walls they nailed His body to the cross. Two robbers were crucified with Him. It was over. The rabble sickened quickly of its revenge and scattered; His friends were hiding; the soldiers were busy casting lots for His garments. There was nothing left of those external influences which fire men's imaginations. Surely the victory of His enemies was complete.''<br /> <br /> <br /> ''And yet -''<br /> <br /> <br /> ''The lasting victory was His.''<br /> <br /> <br /> ''&quot;The man who loses his life,&quot; Jesus said, &quot;shall find it.&quot;''<br /> <br /> <br /> Jesus must have experienced excruciating physical pain when those nails were driven through his body. He must have experienced terrible emotional pain to see his friends and supporters desert him at the hour of his death. But none of this could have compared to when he called out to his father God, &quot;My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?&quot;<br /> <br /> <br /> Why did Jesus die? Surely, he could have accomplished our salvation another way?<br /> <br /> <br /> Some Christians today claim that all religions lead to God with statements like &quot;Christianity is true for me, Islam is true for him and Buddhism is true for you&quot;. Whether or not these Christians intend to or not, they are denying the necessity of the Cross. They are saying that the death of Jesus Christ was not required for a person's salvation and union with God the father. This teaching is called pluralism and is one of the most important issues in the Christian Church today, and it needs to be addressed.<br /> <br /> <br /> There are three general belief's about Christianity and it's relationship to other religions.<br /> <br /> <br /> '''Christian exclusivism''' - Salvation and eternal life with God only come through Jesus Christ. A person cannot be saved by faith in or membership of another religion.<br /> <br /> <br /> '''Christian inclusivism''' - Salvation and eternal life with God come through Jesus Christ, however, if a person through following his conscience puts faith in or membership of another religion, he too is included in Christ's salvation<br /> <br /> <br /> '''Pluralism''' - God can be approached from any religion<br /> <br /> <br /> ----<br /> <br /> '''What does the Bible say?'''<br /> <br /> <br /> Isaiah 53 tells about the atoning sacrifice of Jesus<br /> <br /> <br /> ''Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? He grew up before him like a tender shoot, and like a root out of dry ground. He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him. He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth. By oppression and judgment he was taken away. And who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken. He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth. Yet it was the Lord's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the Lord makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand. After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities. Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.''<br /> <br /> <br /> Jesus has made us righteous. We should have died and been cut off from God, but instead Christ has taken our place. And Christ told us that we must approach God the Father through Him (John 14: 6)<br /> <br /> <br /> ''Jesus answered, I am the way and the truth and the life. No-one comes to the Father except through me.''<br /> <br /> <br /> Jesus would not have died if there was another way. Jesus prayed for another way to the Father in Gethsemane (Matthew 26: 39)<br /> <br /> <br /> ''Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will. ''<br /> <br /> <br /> But there was no other way. Jesus died so we might live.<br /> <br /> <br /> ----<br /> <br /> '''Pluralism and it's problems'''<br /> <br /> <br /> To say that all religions are equally valid is a nice sounding statement. It sounds tolerant. To say that all people can reach God in their own way sound pleasant. After all, if God is a loving God, then he'll make sure that all people are with him eternally, won't he?<br /> <br /> <br /> Pluralists often make the following points<br /> <br /> * It is intolerant to say that the religion of another person is false<br /> * All religions essentially teach the same thing - they all promote peace and love<br /> * There's no such thing as absolute truth, everything is relative<br /> <br /> <br /> '''It is intolerant to say that the religion of another person is false?'''<br /> <br /> If it is intolerant to say that the religion of another person is false, then Jesus was intolerant. All of these Bible quotes would suggest Jesus was intolerant based on that logic<br /> <br /> <br /> Jesus said, &quot;I am the truth, the way, the life. No man comes to the father except through me.&quot; (John 14: 6)<br /> <br /> <br /> Then they asked him, &quot;What must we do to do the works God requires?&quot; Jesus answered, &quot;The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent&quot; (John 6: 28-29)<br /> <br /> <br /> Jesus said to them, I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. (John 6: 53)<br /> <br /> <br /> When questioning salvation through Jesus alone we should not ask about tolerance, but about truth. Either Jesus was telling the truth and we need to come to the Father through Him, or Jesus was lying. A person can be completely tolerant and still believe in the necessity of Jesus for salvation. To be tolerant of another person's belief is to allow him to believe what he wishes and practice these beliefs openly without fear. It does not mean agreeing with his beliefs however.<br /> <br /> <br /> Perhaps an amusing element to this complaint of tolerance is the inherent contradiction within it. On the website www.justforcatholics.org the following question was posed with an answer that perfectly shows this inconsistency..<br /> <br /> '''Question''' ''Personally I think you should mind your own business about everyone's personal beliefs on religion. I think it is disgusting how you can even waste your time thinking of new ways to criticize a person's religion. ''<br /> <br /> '''Answer''' ''I am assuming that you cherish the principle of religious tolerance, and that you believe that every person should be allowed to practice his religion according to his own conscience without being coerced or forced to change his convictions. I believe that too. However, it seems to me that you take the religious tolerance principle too far. You probably feel that every person should 'mind his own business' because it does not really matter what a person believes as long as he is sincere. You would probably accept a Moslem, a Hindu, a Protestant and a Roman Catholic and consider their respective religions as if they are equally valid even though there is total disagreement between them. Even so, you are inconsistent with your own principles. Don't you realize that you're intruding in my personal beliefs and religion? Since you are tolerant of other people's religious convictions, why don't you respect my convictions too?''<br /> <br /> <br /> '''All religions essentially teach the same thing?'''<br /> <br /> <br /> Proponents of pluralism often assert that all religions promote peace and love and therefore teach the same thing. It is true that most religions do promote peace and love, and this a noble thing. We should recognize the virtues taught in other religions. It is wonderful that the Buddhist teaches very strongly against greedy desires, the Hindu about living together in peace, the Muslim about honesty, and the Christian about mercy. However, just because these religions have strong similarities on moral teaching it is simply not true to say that they therefore teach the same thing. I can simply appeal to the teachings of a few religions to make this clear.<br /> <br /> <br /> '''Christianity''' - There is one God, in three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. He created the world and all humans. All people have turned away from God and not lived the way he wants us to - we have all sinned. God the Son became a man, and lived among us. He lived a perfectly life and died on the Cross, and was resurrected to life again. If we place our faith in Him, that he died in our place, for our sins, we have are made right with God again and have eternal life. There is no other way to God except through Christ. The Bible is God's word to us.<br /> <br /> '''Islam''' - There is one God. He is in one person. There is no Son or Holy Spirit. Jesus was a prophet of God and he did not die on the Cross. Muhammad, was God's prophet and he brought the fullness of God's law to people, recorded in the Koran. We must be submission to God's will and obey his commands to have eternal life. These commands include praying to God 5 times a day, travelling to Mecca once in our life, and fasting in the month of Ramadan each year. Essentially if we perform enough good works through our obedience then we have eternal life. <br /> <br /> '''Hinduism''' - There are many gods and the divine is within each of us. All religions are valid and true. After we die, we are reincarnated and our position is determined by karma - good deeds in a previous life lead to a higher position and bad deeds lead to a lower position.<br /> <br /> <br /> '''Buddhism''' - Enlightenment (or Nirvana) can be achieved through meditation, and good religious and moral behaviour. Before reaching Nirvana a person is subjected to repeated lifetimes that are good or bad depending on one's actions or karma. Desire and the belief in the importance of self cause suffering. The founder of Buddhism was Guatama (Buddha)<br /> <br /> <br /> A simple glance at these four faiths shows that they are not the same. On some points they are in total disagreement. According the Islam and Christianity there is one God only, but in Hinduism there are many gods. Christians say that Jesus was God and he died on the cross. Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet and that he did not die on the cross. Buddhists and Hindus believe that we are reincarnated and live many lives on earth, Muslims and Christians believe we live only one life on earth. Muslims believe that we gain eternal life by obeying God's laws given to Muhammad, whereas Christians believe that we are saved by placing our faith in the atoning sacrifice of Christ on the cross. Clearly the religions are not the same. Perhaps they do all promote peace and love. But they certainly differ on arguably the most important issue, eternity and eternal life. <br /> <br /> <br /> '''There's no such thing as absolute truth, everything is relative?'''<br /> <br /> <br /> To say that there is no absolute truth is an absolute statement. So by it's own argument, it either isn't true because it's an absolute statement, or it isn't true because there is no absolute truth. Despite the absurdity of this situation, some people will believe that absolutely everything is relative, and nothing will ever convince them otherwise. These people will say that morality is relative, and there is no real right or wrong. I think the Christian author C. S. Lewis put it perfectly in his book &quot;Mere Christianity&quot; when he said<br /> <br /> ''But the most remarkable thing is this. Whenever you find a man who says he does not believe in a real Right and Wrong, you will find the same man going back on this a moment later. He may break his promise to you, but if you try breaking one to him he will be complaining &quot;It's not fair&quot; before you can say Jack Robinson''<br /> <br /> <br /> ----<br /> <br /> I believe that it is neither biblical nor logical for a Christian to have a pluralistic belief. A Christian should have a tolerant attitude however. Just because I believe that Christ is the only way to the Father, I certainly don't expect everyone to agree with me, and I certainly would never want anyone to be forced into conversion - that would be a hollow conversion, and a great wrong. I believe that God has given us free choice, and we should all respect each others free choices. Yet we should not be silent about Christ...<br /> <br /> <br /> If we acknowledge sin and separation from God, then the question of eternity takes on absolute importance. If we are Christians we will recognize that we are all sinners and need forgiveness. Jesus said that only He brings forgiveness and that no-one comes to God except through Him. How then can we just stand silently and not proclaim the Gospel with all our energy? Each person we meet needs Jesus, just like we do. Let's show that person Jesus. Let's pray that he accepts Jesus. However, let's also pray that we do it God's way, and not our way, that we treat each person with respect and tolerance, drawing him to God, not forcing God onto him and pushing him away.<br /> <br /> <br /> ''This is an unfinished article by [[Graham Llewellyn Grove]]...''<br /> <br /> <br /> ----<br /> <br /> '''Some definitions at a glance'''<br /> <br /> <br /> ''Exclusivism''<br /> <br /> Salvation is through Jesus alone<br /> <br /> <br /> ''Inclusivism''<br /> <br /> Followers of other religions may also be saved through Christ's redemptive work on the Cross by following their conscience, even if they do not acknowledge Jesus <br /> <br /> ''Pluralism''<br /> <br /> All religions are valid and lead to God<br /> <br /> <br /> ''What beliefs do Christian have about other religions and salvation?''<br /> <br /> ''Conservatives'' - Exclusivism<br /> <br /> ''Liberals'' - Inclusivism or pluralism<br /> <br /> <br /> ''Do any denominations have official teachings about other religions and salvation?''<br /> <br /> ''Most Protestant (including Baptists, Lutheran, Anglican) and Pentecostal denominations'' - Exclusivism<br /> <br /> ''Uniting Church'' - Recent official statements imply both exclusivist and inclusionist views<br /> <br /> ''Catholic Church'' - Traditionally exclusivist, however, since Vatican II, inclusionist<br /> <br /> ''Eastern Orthodox'' - No official view, however tend towards inclusivism <br /> <br /> <br /> ----</div> Ymmotrojam http://www.wikichristian.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Some_problems_with_pluralism_and_the_belief_that_all_religions_lead_to_God_(by_G.G.)&diff=142605 Some problems with pluralism and the belief that all religions lead to God (by G.G.) 2006-11-26T04:47:38Z <p>Ymmotrojam: Some problems with pluralism and the belief that all religions lead to God (by G.G.) moved to User:Graham grove/Some problems with pluralism and the belief that all religions lead to God</p> <hr /> <div>#REDIRECT [[User:Graham grove/Some problems with pluralism and the belief that all religions lead to God]]</div> Ymmotrojam http://www.wikichristian.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=User:Graham_grove/The_death_penalty&diff=142602 User:Graham grove/The death penalty 2006-11-26T04:47:09Z <p>Ymmotrojam: The death penalty (G.G.) moved to User:Graham grove/The death penalty</p> <hr /> <div>''Unfinished opinion article''<br /> <br /> ==An introduction==<br /> <br /> The following account is a true story<br /> <br /> :''&quot;I know about you&quot; Kappler said. &quot;People have told me you can't pass a beggar without giving him money, that you will help anyone - Americans, British, Jews, Arabs, all the same. They say you believe in brotherly love.&quot; <br /> O'Flaherty looked at Kappler carefully. &quot;It's why I became a priest. What do you want?&quot;''<br /> <br /> :''&quot;The American army is closing on Rome now. It won't take them long to get here&quot; replied Kappler. &quot;My wife and family are here. There is no German transport to take them home. If the partisans capture them, they'll kill them. I want you to get them to safety. You know how!&quot;''<br /> <br /> :''O'Flaherty was shocked. &quot;No! It is too much to ask! You have sent thousands of families to their deaths, but now you want me to save yours! No. It is the reward of your evil! I will not do it!&quot; O'Flaherty turned and walked away.''<br /> <br /> :''In desperation Kappler shouted to the man who might save his family. &quot;It's all a lie! Your God, love, mercy - all lies. You're no different from anyone else.&quot;''<br /> <br /> :''It was coming to the end of World War II. The Germans were occupying Italy, and Colonel Orbest Kappler was the Nazi Commander of Rome. He had been responsible for deporting 10,000 Italian Jews who were later murdered, and for executing at least 335 Italians in retribution for a bomb that killed 33 Germans. Father O'Flaherty was a Roman Catholic priest. He had hidden Jews and allied soldiers and saved hundreds of lives. He almost lost his own life because Kappler wanted him dead. And now, Kappler was begging him for help. And O'Flaherty knew he must help. Jesus said to &quot;Love your enemies&quot; and &quot;Pray for those who harm you&quot;.''<br /> <br /> Kappler's family did escape to Switzerland. However, Kappler was captured and tried. He was given a life sentence for his crimes instead of the death penalty. He had only one visitor for the next 14 years but that visitor came consistently every month. In 1959, Kappler confessed his [[sins]] and repented and he was baptized by his visitor. That visitor was O'Flaherty. Kappler had become a Christian and received [[forgiveness]] of sins and eternal life through [[Christ]]. Imagine if he had been executed after the war without knowing Christ and forgiveness.<br /> <br /> <br /> The death penalty, or capital punishment as it is otherwise known, is a topic that creates heated debate among both Christians and non-Christians. Among Christians there is no consensus about whether it is ever justified, and whether our governments should implement it or not. There are no clear trends in attitudes that can be attributed to Christians based on denomination or conservative or liberal beliefs. Whether or not Christians are for or against the death penalty seems to be more related to geography than anything else. Christians in the southern states of America tend to be pro capital punishment, whereas Christians from the northern states of America, Europe and Australia tend to be against capital punishment, although these trends are by no means universal. It's hard even to find trends in opinions of Christians from South America, Asia or Africa.<br /> <br /> ==Bible verses used to support capital punishment==<br /> <br /> In the last 50 years many countries have abolished the death penalty. The United States is a notable exception (it did have a brief period without the death penalty in the 1970's). In this country there are large numbers of conservative Christians strongly in favour of the death penalty, who claim the [[Bible]] supports it. In [[Genesis]] 9: 5 [[God]] says<br /> <br /> :''And from each man, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man. Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed. For in the image of God has God made man.''<br /> <br /> Again in [[Exodus 21:14]]<br /> <br /> :''But if a man schemes and kills another man deliberately, take him away from my altar and put him to death.''<br /> <br /> However, [[Exodus 21]]:15-17 states<br /> <br /> :''Anyone who attacks his father or his mother must be put to death. Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death. Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.''<br /> <br /> So to be consistent, Christians using these passages in the Old Testament to justify capital punishment should also be in favour of the death penalty for kidnappers and those who curse their parents. They should also take note of [[Numbers]] 35: 30 which implies at least 2 witnesses of a murder are required for the capital punishment to be enforced<br /> <br /> :''Anyone who kills a person is to be put to death as a murderer only on the testimony of witnesses. But no-one is to be put to death on the testimony of only one witness.''<br /> <br /> ==Reasons against the death penality - the [[Mennonite]] example==<br /> <br /> [[Mennonites]] belong to Christian [[denomination]] who fled to the United States in the seventeenth century. They are conservative, biblically based Christians, who seem to live in the past. The Amish Mennonites in Ohio for example, continue to use horse and carts, and do not have the household comforts of modern life. They are also pacifists and will not fight in wars and are opposed to the death penalty. In a declaration of 1965 they urged the Canadian Government to discontinue capital punishment, stating<br /> <br /> :''Since Christ through His redemptive work has fulfilled the requirement of the death penalty, and has given the church a ministry of reconciliation, and in view of the injustice and ineffectiveness of capital punishment as a means for the achievement of the purpose of government, we express our conviction that its use should be discontinued.''<br /> <br /> Many Christians point out that it is easy to be opposed to the death penalty when it is an abstract principle. The suggestion is that if it was a friend or brother or wife who was murdered, then the anger and bitterness felt would change the views of a Christian opposed to capital punishment. The Christian would then demand that justice is done here and now on earth surely? Consider this story.<br /> <br /> :''In 1957, a man named Cleo Eugene murdered a Mennonite farmer in Ohio. He was caught and tried, and sentenced to die. In an incredible act of mercy, the Mennonite family and community of the murdered man, petitioned the courts to commute the sentence. Their request was granted, and Cleo Eugene lived.''<br /> <br /> ==The stance of different denomination and countries on the death penalty==<br /> <br /> ===What do different Christian denominations teach about the death penalty?===<br /> <br /> Generally there are no defined viewpoints. The Roman Catholic Church has been a vocal opponent of it in recent years. Most churches in Europe and Australia oppose the death penalty. Christians attending conservative Protestant churches in the United States are often in favour of capital punishment.<br /> <br /> ===What are the laws in countries with large Christian population?===<br /> <br /> ''Country'' region Death penalty in force <br /> <br /> Argentina: No <br /> Australia: No <br /> Chile: No <br /> European Union: No <br /> Kenya: Informal moratorium <br /> Russia: Informal moratorium <br /> New Zealand No<br /> United Kingdom: No <br /> United States: Yes <br /> <br /> ===Comments===<br /> <br /> Paradoxically, the most ardent detractors of abortion in the United States are often the most vocal supporters of capital punishment.<br /> <br /> <br /> ----<br /> <br /> <br /> ''An unfinished article by [[Graham Llewellyn Grove]]''<br /> <br /> {{returnto}} [[Death penalty]]</div> Ymmotrojam http://www.wikichristian.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=The_death_penalty_(G.G.)&diff=142603 The death penalty (G.G.) 2006-11-26T04:47:09Z <p>Ymmotrojam: The death penalty (G.G.) moved to User:Graham grove/The death penalty</p> <hr /> <div>#REDIRECT [[User:Graham grove/The death penalty]]</div> Ymmotrojam http://www.wikichristian.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Creation_science_and_evolution_(G.G.)&diff=142600 Creation science and evolution (G.G.) 2006-11-26T04:46:42Z <p>Ymmotrojam: Thoughts on creation science and evolution (G.G.) moved to User:Graham grove/Thoughts on creation science and evolution</p> <hr /> <div>''In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth''<br /> <br /> <br /> ==Introduction==<br /> <br /> In 1928, Arkansas state passed a law by referendum making it illegal to teach &quot;the theory or doctrine that mankind ascended or descended from a lower order of animals.&quot; <br /> In 1999, the Board of Education of Kansas State in the United States voted in favour of removing any reference to evolution from its science curriculum.<br /> <br /> <br /> It seems that there has been a raging debate in parts of America in the last century about the theory of evolution.<br /> <br /> <br /> I wasn't aware of the energy and money that goes into this debate in the United States. Where I come from on the other side of the world, I've never read or heard about any disputes of evolution versus creation science. In mainstream Christian circles in Australia, it is an uncommon topic of discussion. Now and again it pops up in a conversation, but never for long. But look on the internet, and you'll see web site after web site dedicated to discrediting either creation science or evolution - an us versus them approach. People are referred to as evolutionists or creationists - as if this defines their faith?!<br /> <br /> <br /> After reading multitudes of web pages, the question that still occurs to me is - why do people worry so much about this issue?<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> ==Natural selection and evolution==<br /> <br /> It was 1831 and the young scientist, Charles Darwin stepped off the HMS Beagle onto the shore of the uninhabited Galapagos Islands. Animals thrived on the islands, with huge lizards, giant tortoises, and bulky sea lions just a few of the spectacles. But what caught Darwin's attention most was the humble finch. Finches could be found on many of the islands - but no two islands had exactly the same species of finches - in fact, he counted 13 different species. This puzzled him, because he knew of only 1 species of finch in South America, where all these finches had presumably originated from. Darwin recorded in his diary, &quot;One might fancy, that one species has been modified for different ends.&quot;<br /> <br /> <br /> In 1859, Darwin released his life's work - The origin of species. This was a scientific work on the theory of natural selection. It was not a religious work, nor was it an attack on God.<br /> <br /> <br /> The theory of evolution through natural selection can be simply explained. Living things that are suited to their environment are more likely to reproduce than living things that are not suited to their environment. Small changes and adaptations over large amounts of time can results in large changes and by this means, one species can become two.<br /> <br /> <br /> A good example of natural selection in action was discovered in the peppered moths living near industrial English cities in the nineteenth century. These moths have scattered dark markings on their wings and bodies. In 1849, a dark black variant was found near Manchester. Within 50 years over 90% of the moths were of this dark black variant. How could this happen? This moth rests on trees during the day, and would provide food for birds. In the late 19th century, with greater industrialization, smog from nearby factories had begun to darken the bark of trees, and because of this, black moths were harder for birds to see, and therefore more likely to live long enough to reproduce, and so over time the black variant became dominant. Interestingly, with the reduced smog in British cities today, the tree bark is no longer so dark, and the dark moths are becoming less common.<br /> <br /> <br /> Today, there is a general consensus among scientists that the universe was formed in a single moment (the big bang), billions of years ago, and that it has been changing ever since. It is believed that life on earth began a few billion years ago with primitive bacteria, and from these plants and animals evolved into the way they are today. <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> ==How do Christians view the theory of evolution?==<br /> <br /> I believe there tend to be 2 general Christian beliefs regarding evolution<br /> <br /> <br /> There are those who see God's hand behind creation through natural selection - the book of Genesis is about who created the world. <br /> <br /> <br /> There are those who see God's hand behind creation through the literal Genesis account - the book of Genesis is about how the world was created.<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> ==The account in Genesis==<br /> <br /> In the beginning of the Bible, at the beginning of Genesis, the creation of the world is described. Some of Genesis 1 it is written below.<br /> <br /> ''1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth....''<br /> <br /> ''3 And God said, Let there be light, and there was light.''<br /> <br /> ''4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness.''<br /> <br /> ''5 God called the light day, and the darkness he called night. And there was evening, and there was morning - the first day....''<br /> <br /> <br /> ''9 And God said, Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear. And it was so.''<br /> <br /> ''10 God called the dry ground land, and the gathered waters he called seas. And God saw that it was good.''<br /> <br /> ''11 Then God said, Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds. And it was so.''<br /> <br /> ''12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.''<br /> <br /> ''13 And there was evening, and there was morning - the third day....''<br /> <br /> <br /> ''26 Then God said, Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.''<br /> <br /> ''27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.''<br /> <br /> ''28 God blessed them and said to them, Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground.''<br /> <br /> ''29 Then God said, I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.''<br /> <br /> ''30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground--everything that has the breath of life in it - I give every green plant for food. And it was so.''<br /> <br /> ''31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning - the sixth day.''<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> ==Creation science==<br /> <br /> Christians who dispute evolutionary theory tend to look at Genesis 1 as a literal account of the creation of the universe. They usually form a set of beliefs about the origin of the universe that is described as creation science. Many Christians who hold these beliefs are conservative Protestant Christians in North America with a strong belief in the inerrancy of the Bible. Typically, they will believe that<br /> <br /> <br /> God created the universe as described in Genesis. The theory of evolution by natural selection is false. Adam and Eve and their descendents were real people<br /> <br /> <br /> People with Christian science views tend to believe that when God created the world, it was largely the same as it is today. In particular, they refer to each created living thing being created &quot;according to its kind&quot; (Genesis 1: 11). If everything is already created according to its kind and it produces fruit or seed according to its kind, then evolution by natural selection is not true, so the argument flows.<br /> <br /> <br /> Some people believe each day described in Genesis 1 refers to a long period of time. However, others feel that 1 day really is 24 hours, and unfortunately get dragged into debates and explanations proving that the earth is less than 10,000 years old. Attempts are made to explain how specific scientific dating methods such as carbon dating are incorrect. Some people endeavour to rationalize the existence of dinosaur fossils with more pseudoscience. Although often done with the best of motives, these people can become entangled in a quagmire of halve-truths and tend to place far too much emphasis on creation science and not enough importance on the Gospel.<br /> <br /> <br /> Possibly the idea that disturbs people with creation science views the most, is the concept that human beings evolved from other primates. If we are made in the image of God then how can we have evolved? If we evolved from other primates, then how are we any different from other animals? This is an understandable concern, because the Bible certainly does teach that there is something special about humans - that we have been made in God's likeness. However, this concern presumes that it is our physical form that makes us human. Yet surely what we look like does not define our humanity. It is important to realize that the theory of natural selection does not discuss what makes a human a human.<br /> <br /> <br /> Some people feel that creation scientists read more meaning in Genesis than it is intended to convey. In the past, the Church has silenced voices that it has felt contradicted Genesis. For example, in the 17th century the Italian scientist Galileo was threatened with torture and placed under house arrest for teaching that the earth and planets revolved around the sun, and his book was placed on the Church Index of forbidden works until 1835. Yet now Christians find it hard to believe that this occurred, and are unable to find passages in Genesis that discuss the nature of space to disprove this model of the solar system. Will we feel the same way about creation science 200 years from now?<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> ==Theistic evolution==<br /> <br /> Science is the study of natural world - it is the study of stuff, of matter, of energy. With science we try to explain what and how things happen. What makes a stone sink and ice float on water? How can eating raw meat cause illness? Natural selection is a scientific theory - it attempts to answer how the animals and plants around us came to be the way they are.<br /> <br /> <br /> Science can never prove or disprove God. God is not within the universe - he created it. He is a spiritual being, not a physical thing. And because of this, the theory of evolution by natural selection does not deny God's existence. Despite this, many non-Christians and many Christians with a creation science background choose to believe that the theory of evolution is making a comment on the lack of existence of God. It is not.<br /> <br /> <br /> Many Christians have studied evolutionary theory and feel that it is based in scientific truth. For these Christians there is no difficulty reconciling their faith in Jesus with an acceptance of this scientific theory. God created the universe, including the laws of physics and nature, and through this, natural selection has occurred - theistic evolution. For these Christians, Genesis is a book that explains who created the universe and how man relates to God, but it does not explain the actual mechanics of how the universe was created.<br /> <br /> <br /> There is a wide variety of beliefs regarding how the world was created for Christians who do not fall into the creation science group. Some believe that<br /> <br /> <br /> ''God created the universe as described in Genesis, using evolution by natural selection as his tool<br /> Adam and Eve and their descendents were real people''<br /> <br /> <br /> Others believe that<br /> <br /> <br /> ''God created the universe using evolution by natural selection as his tool<br /> Adam and Eve and some of the other people described early in Genesis may not have been real people, but perhaps are stories that explain the human condition''<br /> <br /> <br /> One of the main difficulties with theistic evolution is that Genesis describes the first two people and their original sin. In the account from Genesis 2 and 3, God created the man (Adam) and from him, He created the woman (Eve) to be his helper. God forbade the man to eat fruit from a specific trees saying, &quot;You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die&quot;. However, the woman saw that the fruit of this tree was desirable and she took and ate some, giving some to her husband as well. And so the account continues.<br /> <br /> <br /> For Christians who believe that Adam and Eve were real people, then how and when were they created?<br /> <br /> <br /> For Christians who do not believe that Adam was a real person, then what about his descendents? Were Cain and Abel real people? Was Noah a real person and the great flood a real event? Are these just stories that are explaining a point or meaning? If these people never really existed, then how can we say that the Bible is without error?<br /> <br /> <br /> These are important questions. Perhaps the most important of all questions is how does a conservative Christian with theistic evolution beliefs reconcile these beliefs to the inerrancy of the Bible? A liberal Christian may not believe that the Bible is free from error, however a conservative Christian will believe this. If the conservative Christian sees a day as a time period then it is easy for him to reconcile evolution to the account of Genesis 1. If he also sees the accounts of Adam, Eve and their descendents as stories to explain a point, in the same way that Jesus told parables, then again he may see no conflict in evolutionary theory and the Bible.<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> ==The most misunderstood ideas==<br /> <br /> <br /> Many Christians who accept the theory of natural selection as a scientific truth, tend to think that Christians with creation science viewpoints are unintelligent and have not thought through the issue. This is not true. Those with the creation science opinions have usually read widely around the topic and usually have informed opinions.<br /> <br /> <br /> Many Christians who have creation science viewpoints believe that Christians who accept natural selection do not believe in the inerrancy of the Bible. This is not true. A Christian can believe that the Bible is completely the word of God and still feel that the evolutionary theory is a truthful scientific theory. <br /> <br /> <br /> ==Conclusion==<br /> <br /> In the end, does this debate really matter? What makes us Christian is our personal faith in Jesus Christ as our saviour... Perhaps we can ask Christ how he made the world when we meet him face to face.<br /> <br /> <br /> ----<br /> <br /> <br /> By [[Graham Llewellyn Grove]]<br /> <br /> <br /> ----<br /> <br /> <br /> Return to [[Creation science and evolution]] contents page</div> Ymmotrojam http://www.wikichristian.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Thoughts_on_creation_science_and_evolution_(G.G.)&diff=142601 Thoughts on creation science and evolution (G.G.) 2006-11-26T04:46:42Z <p>Ymmotrojam: Thoughts on creation science and evolution (G.G.) moved to User:Graham grove/Thoughts on creation science and evolution</p> <hr /> <div>#REDIRECT [[User:Graham grove/Thoughts on creation science and evolution]]</div> Ymmotrojam http://www.wikichristian.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Travelogue:_Salt_Lake_City_(G.G.)&diff=142598 Travelogue: Salt Lake City (G.G.) 2006-11-26T04:45:58Z <p>Ymmotrojam: Salt Lake City: Extracts from a personal travelogue (G.G.) moved to User:Graham grove/Salt Lake City: Extracts from a personal travelogue</p> <hr /> <div>[[Image:Temple square.jpg|thumb|Temple Square in Salt Lake City]]<br /> <br /> <br /> ''March 31, 2004''... We drove north towards Utah and stopped at the pretty town of Kanab for our first sleep on a real bed for a few days. Our motel room gave us a chance to recharge all that electrical equipment we're carrying and do the washing. We knew we were in Utah, because apart from the Gideon's Bible in the room, there was also the Book of Mormon, there for our perusal. The next morning we drove to Zion National Park, which has stunning rocks and cliffs. In fact, the whole drive has passed through the most beautiful country we've ever seen - we didn't realise America had so much natural beauty. We even saw a squirrel who came very close to us. We arrived in the outskirts of Salt Lake City late in the afternoon. The city is surrounded by mountains covered with snow - it's very beautiful. In the evening we watched the Passion of the Christ. Neither of us have cried so much in a movie before. It was extremely moving, and was true to the Gospel. We both prayed that many people would see the film. &quot;But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His wounds we are healed&quot; ([[Isaiah]] 53:5)...We slept in Walmart again then headed for the public library (gotta love that free internet). Now we're off to explore downtown Salt Lake City. Love Graham and Nicole.<br /> <br /> <br /> ''April 1, 2004''... Salt Lake City, Utah - This sure is an interesting place to visit. We spent most of yesterday in &quot;Temple Square&quot; - the Mormon heart of Salt Lake City. Actually we didn't intend to spend quite so much time there but they rope you into a free guided tour to see each thing! Having said that, the tours were fascinating. The architecture and gardens in the square are magnificent. There is an enormous temple (for private worship), tabernacle (for group gatherings), and convention centre (seating 21,000 people). We learnt all about the Mormon beliefs, including that Jesus visited the Americas after his resurrection, and plans to establish his Kingdom on the American continent. There's also the added &quot;Book of Mormon&quot; in addition to the Bible, that explains how some tribes of Israel sailed to America, becoming the ancestors of some American Indians. Of course, the original texts of the book of Mormon (from 600 BC to AD 400) which were discovered in the 19th Century, have conveniently &quot;disappeared.&quot; It's all very interesting and bizarre. The people here are lovely and friendly, and strangely enough, this city has reminded us a bit of Adelaide... <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> By [[Graham Llewellyn Grove]]<br /> <br /> <br /> ''I've cut this from the travelogue my wife and I kept when we went travelling one year (original site [http://www.users.on.net/~graham_grove/travel_abroad/index.htm Travels abroad])<br /> <br /> <br /> ----<br /> <br /> <br /> Go to [[Salt Lake City]] contents page</div> Ymmotrojam http://www.wikichristian.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Salt_Lake_City:_Extracts_from_a_personal_travelogue_(G.G.)&diff=142599 Salt Lake City: Extracts from a personal travelogue (G.G.) 2006-11-26T04:45:58Z <p>Ymmotrojam: Salt Lake City: Extracts from a personal travelogue (G.G.) moved to User:Graham grove/Salt Lake City: Extracts from a personal travelogue</p> <hr /> <div>#REDIRECT [[User:Graham grove/Salt Lake City: Extracts from a personal travelogue]]</div> Ymmotrojam http://www.wikichristian.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Travelogue:_Wittenberg_(G.G.)&diff=142596 Travelogue: Wittenberg (G.G.) 2006-11-26T04:45:32Z <p>Ymmotrojam: Wittenberg: Extracts from a person travellogue (G.G.) moved to User:Graham grove/Wittenberg: Extracts from a person travellogue</p> <hr /> <div>''From May 28, 2004''<br /> <br /> [[Image:Wittenburg_church_door_gg.jpg|thumb|right|The door where Luther nailed his 95 Theses]]<br /> <br /> [[Image:Indulgence_box_gg.jpg|thumb|left|An indulgence]]<br /> <br /> Wittenberg, Germany - We left Munich just in time - the weather was miserable as we hauled our backpacks to the train station through the red-light district. The last couple of days, Graham had had a mild cold, but by the time we reached our destination of Wittenberg it had well and truly spread to Nicole. Luckily we had enough energy to see Wittenberg well - and it was well worth it. It was the base of [[Martin Luther]] and the [[Reformation]] and has a really interesting museum about all the events of the time. Luther, who was a monk, became worried about the practice of people buying their forgiveness through the practice of [[indulgences]], and came to the conclusion that [[salvation]] came through faith in Christ alone, thus spawning the [[Protestant churches]]. In the museum was an indulgence box, an original copy of the 95 theses (reasons) against indulgences, a copy of the papal documents excommunicating Luther and one of the early Bibles translated into German. After the museum, we wandered to the church where Luther reputedly nailed his 95 theses to the door. It was a really interesting day... <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> By [[Graham Llewellyn Grove]]<br /> <br /> <br /> ''I've cut this from the travellogue my wife and I kept when we went travelling one year (original site [http://www.users.on.net/~graham_grove/travel_abroad/index.htm Travels abroad])<br /> <br /> {{returnto}} [[Wittenberg]] | [[Reformation]]</div> Ymmotrojam http://www.wikichristian.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Wittenberg:_Extracts_from_a_person_travellogue_(G.G.)&diff=142597 Wittenberg: Extracts from a person travellogue (G.G.) 2006-11-26T04:45:32Z <p>Ymmotrojam: Wittenberg: Extracts from a person travellogue (G.G.) moved to User:Graham grove/Wittenberg: Extracts from a person travellogue</p> <hr /> <div>#REDIRECT [[User:Graham grove/Wittenberg: Extracts from a person travellogue]]</div> Ymmotrojam http://www.wikichristian.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Travelogue:_Mount_Sina_(G.G.)&diff=142594 Travelogue: Mount Sina (G.G.) 2006-11-26T04:44:54Z <p>Ymmotrojam: Mount Sinai: Extracts from a personal travellogue (G.G.) moved to User:Graham grove/Mount Sinai: Extracts from a personal travellogue</p> <hr /> <div>''From July 17, 2004''<br /> <br /> [[Image:Mount_sinai.jpg|thumb|Sunrise at Mount Sinai]]<br /> <br /> Late last night we headed off to Mount Sinai which is about 300 km drive from Sharm El-Sheik. We started the 3 hour climb at about 2:30 am along with several hundred other people. We wanted to see the place where God spoke to Moses, &quot;I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery,&quot; and delivered the 10 Commandments (or the 10 Committments as our guide kept calling them). We found the climb tiring but the view from the peak was beautiful. Unfortunately Nicole's mum felt quite unwell and vomited a lot, so she and Nicole's dad watched the sunrise from a Bedouin hut half way up. At the bottom of the mountain we visited a Greek Orthodox monastery called St Catherine's. Enclosed within its walls are a bush that is claimed to be the burning bush from which God first appeared to Moses, and the well at which Moses supposedly met his wife. Twenty-four monks live at the monastery, including one Australian. We were surprised to see a mosque also within the walls. This was built a few centuries ago when a Muslim ruler (El-Hakim) was destroying Christian sites and the monks figured that if they built a mosque he'd leave them in peace - and they were right. El-Hakim also banned women from wearing shoes so they had to stay in the home, and forbid the cooking of a particular green soup on penalty of death just because he thought it tasted so disgusting! What a strange man...<br /> <br /> <br /> By [[Graham Llewellyn Grove]]<br /> <br /> <br /> ''I've cut this from the travellogue my wife and I kept when we went travelling one year (original site [http://www.users.on.net/~graham_grove/travel_abroad/index.htm Travels abroad])<br /> <br /> <br /> ----<br /> <br /> <br /> Return to [[Mount Sinai]] contents page</div> Ymmotrojam http://www.wikichristian.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Mount_Sinai:_Extracts_from_a_personal_travellogue_(G.G.)&diff=142595 Mount Sinai: Extracts from a personal travellogue (G.G.) 2006-11-26T04:44:54Z <p>Ymmotrojam: Mount Sinai: Extracts from a personal travellogue (G.G.) moved to User:Graham grove/Mount Sinai: Extracts from a personal travellogue</p> <hr /> <div>#REDIRECT [[User:Graham grove/Mount Sinai: Extracts from a personal travellogue]]</div> Ymmotrojam