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Sometimes the church is spoken about in terms of the "invisible church" and the "visible church". The invisible church basically means the community or collection of true believers in Jesus regardless of denominational affiliation. The term visible church is used to refer to the physical countable members or leaders that make up a church or group of churches. In roman catholic doctrine the invisible and the visible church are identified although it is admitted that elements of the invisible church are present outside the visible (i.e. the Catholic) church.<ref>cf. [[Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith]]: [http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070629_responsa-quaestiones_en.html Responses to Some Questions Regarding Certain Aspects of the Doctrine of the Church], 2007, second and third question.</ref>