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Category:WikiChristian
{{box | text=This page is to discuss how the Bible could best be referenced in WikiChristian and any changes that we should undertake. Please see [[Bible Changes]] for the current system that is being implemented.}}
== Opening Salvo ==
Some of the pros of the current system that I can see are:
* Would the footnotes need to be displayed every time the text is quoted, or only seen on the original page, or be electable? All are possible.
::: --[[User:Aquatiki|Aquatiki]] 10:44, 23 July 2008 (PDT)
:::: Graham yet again
* I'd be interested to hear a little further about your thinking for linking in the Bible. I'm suggesting for example, if the word "Abraham" appears in the text, that it links to [[Abraham]]; "Baal" would link to [[Baal]]; "Israel" might link to [[Ancient Israel and Judah]] if it was appropriate to the context and so on. --[[User:Graham grove|Graham grove]] 10:51, 23 July 2008 (PDT)
* Not sure about where the footnote would be seen. Perhaps only on the original page. What do you think? --[[User:Graham grove|Graham grove]] 10:53, 23 July 2008 (PDT)
::::: Aq
* I don't disagree that sometimes it's plain as day, but just to take you last one as an example: Dispensationalism says that Ancient Israel '''''is''''' Modern Israel: you're deciding they are not by having two pages and linking to one over the other. Or, somewhere you and I might disagree, what is "the world" in [[John 3:16]]? The planet? The people? Which people? The elect? Who gets to decide which link is appropriate when there isn't just one page to which one can link?
* Footnotes about textual variations are so erudite and esoteric, that I can't imagine any but the most lofty of scholars wanting to input that resolution of detail into a wiki. Since, however, [http://unbound.biola.edu Unbound]'s free texts provide it, it would seem best in by judgment to include it on the Greek page and nowhere else. --[[User:Aquatiki|Aquatiki]] 11:01, 23 July 2008 (PDT)
:::::: Graham
* Fair enough - I'm happy to cut out the idea of putting links in the English text. I guess the commentary section is meant for the explaining of terms anyway. I still think it is important to put the links in the original language however.
* I agree about leaving textual variations in the Greek page.
:::::: It seems to me that we're coming to some good conclusions here. I don't imagine that many other people are going to make comments, but you never know.
:::::: I think the next step is to work out what a standard page verse, chapter and book page would look like. --[[User:Graham grove|Graham grove]] 11:10, 23 July 2008 (PDT)
::::::: I will make a working model for you once I am able to create a namespace or two. --[[User:Aquatiki|Aquatiki]] 11:17, 23 July 2008 (PDT)
::::::: P.S. I think it's good that we document this conversation as there may be technical people who come along at a later date.
:::::::: Brilliant. Sounds good. Agreed about the documentation. Thanks Robert. --[[User:Graham grove|Graham grove]] 11:32, 23 July 2008 (PDT)
:::::::: By the way, could we keep it as much is possible in line with style outlined in [[Wikichristian.org:Page Layout]]. Perhaps some sort of cross between what you've created in ReformedWord and the style of, for example, [[John 11:25]] or [[John 11:35]]. --[[User:Graham grove|Graham grove]] 11:35, 23 July 2008 (PDT)
== Which namespace for verse pages? ==
:Another question - probably a silly one, but I just want to be sure. I like being able to type the verse into the search section, e.g. I like being able to type "John 1:1" into the search box on the left hand side of the wiki and have John 1:1 loaded up. That would still occur with the new system we're thinking of implementing wouldn't it? --[[User:Graham grove|Graham grove]] 15:05, 23 July 2008 (PDT)
:: Have you read [[MediaWiki talk:Sidebar]]? Ryan has suggested that we might want to have random:verse and random:article. I thought we could segregate all the Bible stuff to separate namespaces (WEB:John/1/1,KJV:John/1/1,Greek:John/1/1, etc) and even have Bible verse pages themselves be Bible:John 1:1. The solution I just found to your hope was [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Special_page here]: Special:Random does not ever point to redirects, special:Randomredirect does. Soooo, if you had all the verses (i.e. [[John 1:1]]) be redirects to Bible:John 1:1, then you could still type into the search box John 1:1 and end up at Bible:John 1:1 and Special:Random|Random article and Special:Random/Bible|Random verse could still work. Does that make sense? --[[User:Aquatiki|Aquatiki]] 16:36, 23 July 2008 (PDT)
::: Yes that makes sense. I'm glad it will be possible because I think it is important to be able to type the verse or chapter in the search bar and end up at the right place. Robert, I think you're doing a fantastic job, and a very good and useful wiki is going to be the result of all your hard work. By the way, I love the fact that Greek and Hebrew are now down below (Another good reason to have non-accented text as the standard is the fact that the characters below don't have accents). Cheers. --[[User:Graham grove|Graham grove]] 03:46, 24 July 2008 (PDT)
== First Draft ==
Check out [[Bible:John 1:1]] and tell me what you think. Also imagine that someday [[John 1:1]] will be a redirect to there. --[[User:Aquatiki|Aquatiki]] 17:01, 24 July 2008 (PDT)
: That's brilliant. It looks good and your system is excellent. I really appreciate that you kept it in the same format as the rest of WikiChristian and that it isn't really clutterred. Thanks especially for keeping the links in the Greek and keeping it in non-accented format. Now, for the second draft what extra features would you like to add in?
: Here are some ideas
* Given that we decided we weren't going to put links in the WEB or KJV version, then how about we remove the "edit" box
* I like your little box to show all translations in ReformedWord - it's very impressive. Would you like to add that or something similar to that somewhere? I'm not sure where the best place for it would be - e.g. at the bottom of the page or the top of the page?
* Your little box to show the parsing is great as well. Would you like to incorporate something similar into WikiChristian? I wonder if the best place for that would be in the Greek:John 1:1 page?
: But that's great work and I especially like that you've kept it simple and in the style of WikiChristian. Thanks Robert. I look forward to hearing your ideas to make it more useful. --[[User:Graham grove|Graham grove]] 23:12, 24 July 2008 (PDT)
== Nitty Gritty Greek/Hebrew/Latin ==
<small>I hope you're still looking over here, Graham.</small> It doesn't seem right to me to have [[Ειμι]] be in the main namespace. Shouldn't we move it to [[Greek:Ειμι]]? It's not an article and not intended for general consumption. This is important as it will determine how I make all the Greek, Hebrew and Latin pages. --[[User:Aquatiki|Aquatiki]] 06:51, 2 August 2008 (PDT)
: Sure. Let's move it to [[Greek:Ειμι]] and we can do that for all Hebrew, Latin and Greek words. Cool. Thanks. --[[User:Graham grove|Graham grove]] 07:46, 2 August 2008 (PDT)
:: OK, I did it. Look at [[Greek:John 1:1]]. I changed the link for ην to point to a subsection on [[Greek:Ειμι]]. This would be a way for us to link to the specific form of the verb/noun/adjective, so people could tell the parsing. I was thinking we could add a lot of white space at the bottom of the page, so that even the last form linked to would still show up at the top of the page when clicked on.
:: The reason I'm proposing this style for Greek pages is because to do it the way I've done on ReformedWord would require the extension [http://www.semantic-mediawiki.org Semantic MediaWiki]. That would be a '''''major''''' change for this site and a big commitment to make things part of [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_3.0 Web 3.0]. I'm not sure it's something we'd want to embark on quite yet (if ever). Let me know what you think of my proposed system. --[[User:Aquatiki|Aquatiki]] 08:51, 2 August 2008 (PDT)
::: Not sure about what the page will end up looking like. It might be a little too messy this way. I'm beginning to think your original idea of simple redirects (e.g. "en" redirecting to "eimi" or "theon" redirecting to "theos") and having clear tables is the neatest way to do it. --[[User:Graham grove|Graham grove]] 09:08, 2 August 2008 (PDT)
:::: Well-flushed-out adjectives and verbs might look a little gross, but names and nouns might not look too bad. I tend to agree with you, however. Shall we make it a definitive statement? --[[User:Aquatiki|Aquatiki]] 09:13, 2 August 2008 (PDT)
::::: Yep. Agreed. --[[User:Graham grove|Graham grove]] 09:16, 2 August 2008 (PDT)
== Current system ==
I really like the way John 1:1 is looking. Although it may not be as fancy as ReformedWord I actually like this simpler system. Well done. Looking good. --[[User:Graham grove|Graham grove]] 07:48, 2 August 2008 (PDT)
: With your approval, I think it's about time to try a mass-production. How 'bout ... the gospel of John? This would involve the change/creation-of any ''John_???:???'' pages into/as redirects, the creation of all Bible/Greek/Hebrew/Latin/KJV/WEB:John_???:??? pages and the deletion of all ''Template'' and ''John ... (WEB)'' pages.
: Are we ready? --[[User:Aquatiki|Aquatiki]] 10:06, 2 August 2008 (PDT)
:: We're definitely ready.
:: Note that: [[John 11]], [[John 11:25]] and [[John 11:35]] have a commentary section that would be good not to lose. Should we copy these pages into the discussion on this page?
:: For the chapter pages, e.g. John 1, I think it would be good to use the exact same style as for the verse page except for the following: instead of the whole chapter quoted at the top, perhaps just display the first verse quoted in a collapsed box that is expandable.
:: I'm looking forward to a fully functioning Gospel of John! --[[User:Graham grove|Graham grove]] 14:31, 2 August 2008 (PDT)
::: <small>I'll take your points in reverse order</small> I not gonna try the chapter page at this time. Let me make a mock up at [[Bible:John 1]] first before we try.
::: What about those commentary pages? Should they be at [[John 1:1 (commentary)]] or [[Bible:John 1:1 (commentary)]] with a redirect? --[[User:Aquatiki|Aquatiki]] 14:37, 2 August 2008 (PDT)
== Collapsibility ==
For some reason the table of different translations doesn't seem collapsible on my computer here. I'm not sure if it is a problem at my end or at the servers end. --[[User:Graham grove|Graham grove]] 14:35, 2 August 2008 (PDT)
: What browser are you using? Trying clearing your cache. Does it work in Firefox? --[[User:Aquatiki|Aquatiki]] 14:37, 2 August 2008 (PDT)
:: I've tried both firefox 2 and internet explorer 5. I'll clear my cache though and see what happens. --[[User:Graham grove|Graham grove]] 14:38, 2 August 2008 (PDT)
:: Clearing the cache hasn't seemed to have made a difference. I can see all the verses - the box simply appears to be permanently expanded on mine with no link to expand or hide. --[[User:Graham grove|Graham grove]] 14:40, 2 August 2008 (PDT)
:: When I use internet explorer, the page appears to load up fine, but down the bottom (where it says "Done" it notes that there was an error loading the page). --[[User:Graham grove|Graham grove]] 14:41, 2 August 2008 (PDT)
::: What on EARTH?!?!?!? That was working a minute ago!?!?! This is so frustrating. :-( I wanna cry! --[[User:Aquatiki|Aquatiki]] 14:45, 2 August 2008 (PDT)
:::: I thought I saw it working too and wondered if I was going mad! What I reckon is lets not worry about collapsibility for the moment. That can also be added in later right? --[[User:Graham grove|Graham grove]] 14:49, 2 August 2008 (PDT)
::::: I '''''WILL''''' get it working again! The trouble is, changes takes ''days'' to filter through. There are internal caches and caches across the internet and browser caches. It WILL work, but like you said, I won't worry for now. --[[User:Aquatiki|Aquatiki]] 14:53, 2 August 2008 (PDT)
:::::: I like your attitude. Definitely not worth stressing over at the moment. --[[User:Graham grove|Graham grove]] 14:56, 2 August 2008 (PDT)
[[Category:WikiChristian]]