User talk:Graham grove/Archive 1

Opening remarks

Hi Graham, How are you? I am wondering if we should try to change our domain name to WikiChristian.org and forward the wikichristian.com to that domain since it makes more sense since we want to keep it a non-commercial project. We can also consider registering a not for profit organization as we grow. Please share your thoughts on this. We already have both the domains with us. Thanks. -Prab

Hi Prab, Sure. I don't really know what the difference between .com and .org is - but if you think there is a good reason for the change, go for it. --Graham

Hi Graham. I'm glad you're working here. This idea of a Christian wiki has a lot of potential. --DavidCary 22:15, 8 Mar 2005 (PST)

Thanks David --Graham

You're welcome. Yes, I would like to contribute. I'm glad WikiChristian and the Compass wiki are getting along so well. --DavidCary 18:00, 22 Mar 2005 (PST)

Hi Graham, Thank you for the wonderful work you are doing with all the lyrics. In order to better organize the information in the wiki, it is a good idea to categorize the pages so that the system automatically creates alphabetical lists. All we have to do is to type [[Category:type]] at the bottom of the page. For example, the songs category pages should have [[category:songs]]. Also, there are some dead end pages that do not have any link and the best way to avoid creating dead end pages is by categories and templates. To create a new template, just type {{template name}} and edit the template page with the link created. Thanks for the understanding. --User:Prab

Hi Prab, Yep - it's a good idea to use templates and categories. Makes sense to me. However, I still like to have the index and contents pages under the control of the users rather than at the mercy of an automated system. Thanks --Graham

Hi Graham, Thanks for the message in my user page. I think we can do both. Actually, the system does a good job in organizing the info alphabetically but giving the control to the users as well makes sense and we will continue both. Thanks. -Prab

Hello, Graham. Thank you for the warm welcome to WikiChristian. As a United Methodist, I suspect I'll be making lots of Wesleyan-type edits but hope to add significantly to the encyclopedia in a number of categories. Good to be a part of the community! Shalom! KHM03 15:05, 22 Mar 2005 (PST)

Song Styleguide

I'd like to draw your attention to this talk page, Graham, WikiChristian talk:Song styleguide. I've made a pretty signigicant change to the titles of the songs and lyrics and hope to promote a single style for the titles. --Mustaphile 11:06, 8 May 2005 (PDT)

found your picture

Found your picture on your website

Good to put a face to the name. File:Big grin.gif

--Mustaphile 20:57, 22 May 2005 (PDT)

writing in first person

Hi Graham (my name also happens to be Graham), I was just reading through some of the articles and I notice that frequently in the articles you write you use first person voice liberally. Not that I object to this in general, it's definitely a great tool for communicating Christian truth. However, since this is an Encyclopedia, perhaps we should consider using a more objective (third person) voice as much as possible? In articles and opinions, of course, first person is entirely acceptable. But in the more historical and factual entries, I wonder whether the first person voice comes off as scholarly or merely as "preachy," thus turning off potential believers and causing WikiChristian to be viewed as "just another evangelist website." Again, not that I object to your writing style in general, I think you're doing a great thing by devoting so much of your time to this project! ---- 09:07, 23 Apr 2005 (PDT)

Hi Av. I've really enjoyed learning from your articles. You're doing a great job.

It's quite true that I do write opinions often. I try to make it clear that it is an opinion - which is why I write my name next to the article - so that a user can skip stuff I write if they don't want to read opinions, or so they can click on my name and read my background and understand my biases. You're also right in saying that using the first person doesn't always come off as scholarly. But when discussing Christianity, does it always have to be scholarly? Can experience or a testimony or even just a gut feeling be as worthwhile?

I guess I disagree with you on one point. You say that this is an Encyclopedia. My hope is that this is not only an encyclopedia - if it were only an encyclopedia then why not just write in Wikipedia? I hope this is a place where people can write their views and opinions including their understanding of history. The way I am going to write about about the Reformation is probably going to be quite different than the way a Roman Catholic would write about the Reformation, or again different from the way an atheist would write about it. Although there are historical facts involved, I think there will usually be a slant in one direction or another. I think it is best to allow multiple articles on the history of the reformation (or any other topic). Perhaps there should be the main article that is dry and factual only, but I think it is fine also for there to be lots of other articles which tend to have a slant in one way or another. Sometimes that will be "preachy" but hopefully at least it will be open for dialogue, discussion and rebuttal. I also don't think making this a purely factual Encyclopedia is likely to help brng people to Christ. Maybe I'm wrong - I'd be interested to know if anyone has been significantly drawn to Jesus by looking up information about Christianity on wikipedia.

If you look at the baptism page you'll see that I've written an article there which is clearly my own opinion. Obviously there will be people who have different opinions on this topic. I think it would be great if other people add links for new articles where they can explain their alternate views. Even the writer of Easton's Bible Dictionary is pretty biased (and this is supposed to be a dictionary which I would imagine shouldn't be biased). If you read Bible Dictionary: Baptism you'll see that there is clearly a particular point being pushed.

What you say is important though. I shouldn't be writing things that turn people away from Christ - I guess what I want to do is write things that say what I believe and challenge people to think about what they believe - be it the same or different from my belief. Sometimes I fail at that task. If you let me know which comments I make in which articles that are specifically preachy and that you think would really offend people, let me know and I'll try and fix them up. Your brother in Christ, --Graham Grove

Hi Graham, I worry that I may have overstated the problem in my first post. In the vast majority of your articles I don't see anything to worry about. But take, for instance, in the conclusion section of Church History (G.G.). The rest of the article is mostly factual, but the conclusion is definitely composed mostly of opinion. It's an opinion I share completely, so I'm not objecting to the content of it, but it seems to me that the best place for that section would be in a separate article discussing your opinion on the unity of the Church, etc. And though it does not sound particularly preachy to me, I can almost guarantee you that some of my atheist/agnostic friends would read it as trying to "explain away" the "fact" that Christianity just "can't figure itself out," or something to that effect. Would minor reorganizations like this actually convert them? Probably not, but it would remove that small objection they may have.

I completely agree that Wikichristian should be much more than a dry encyclopedia; my concern is that the division between fact and opinion might become blurred if we are not careful about this. ---- 00:26, 24 Apr 2005 (PDT)

Thanks Av. I think you were quite right - that was out of place in an article that probably should have remained neutral and factual. I've moved my conclusion into a separate article. Thanks for the advice. --Graham Grove, 24 April

Hi Graham, I'm glad we agreed on this :). On a semi-related note, I thought more about what you said about wikipedia being the place for a "dry encyclopedia" and I thought that perhaps just to save time and effort, we could import articles en masse to wikichristian on historical and factual matters. Since wikipedia articles are generally pretty reliable, this way we'll be able to concentrate more of our efforts on dialogue and writing opinion articles (which I agree should be the core of wikichristian). Since you're one of the "main guys" here, I figured I'd ask your thoughts before I started doing it a bunch. But just so you can get an idea of what I mean, I imported the Arianism article from wikipedia on top of my old entry. As helpful as it is to me to write up my own short explanations of things, I think this would probably be more efficient and beneficial to wikichristian as a whole. I'm interested to know your thoughts. ---- 09:39, 24 Apr 2005 (PDT)

G'day Av. Go for it, transfer any articles you think a worth transferring. I've noticed sometimes that I've got to have my thinking hat on when reading articles from Wikipedia. For instance, in the article on Christianity, it has a list of famous Christians, one of whom is Joseph Smith. He's the founder of the Mormon religion, so I don't think it is accurate to say he is a famous Christian. Certainly he was a very influential man and a famous religious leader who has had a major impact in history, but I think most Christians would agree that he should be left off a list of famous Christians. In general though, like you've suggested, Wikipedia is pretty reliable and thorough, so go for it and transfer away. —unsigned comment by Graham grove (talk • contribs)

vandalism

I have noticed that you have some users who are constantly editing the articles to say nasty things. They switch words, screw up spelling so that links do not work, and seem to be somewhat of an annoyance. Is there any way to stop this? It may be that this is the downside to a website like this where users can freely edit each other's work. JordanBarrett 13:42, 28 July 2005 (PDT)

Yep, that tends to happen a lot. When Prab initially set up the site, that happened a lot and so we protected most of the pages so that only sysops could edit them. Then the vandalism stopped for a time and we unprotected most the pages. It seems to occur periodically again - and it only seems to be coming from one person. There probably is some way of stopping it, but I'm not an expert at wikis so I'm unfamiliar with how to stop it. I know the set up for Theopedia is that only people with user names can edit pages - perhaps that is the best way around the problem. You could talk to Prab about the problems if you want. --Graham

hello from User:Phatcat68

Hello Graham! I saw your message to check out this site and decided to do so. I went ahead and signed up as a user and added some churches that I know of in West Virginia. Thanks for the invitation! I will check out the pages you indicated as time permits! Thanks again! --Phatcat68 20:59, 29 Sep 2005 (EDT)

G'day and welcome Phatcat68. Thanks for adding to the directory of churches. Feel free to create and edit other articles if you want to. A while back we had a lot of trouble with vandalism (and the only way we could stop it and make the vandals go away was to protect all the pages). Hopefully most pages have now been unprotected and if we haven't unprotected them all it is only because of forgetfulness. If you find one that is protected, give me a yell, and I'll unprotect it. --Graham grove 22:28, 29 Sep 2005 (EDT)

hello from User:SWD316

Hi there Graham, Im SWD316. I created an account and user page! Thanks for the invintation here! I didn't see it until today. You put it in an archive on my Wikipedia page, coincidentally it was an archive of coversations I had with Phatcat68! Wierd. Anyways thanks for the invite! SWD316 (yes I have a user page; it just looks like a red link!)

Invitation to RWiki Yahoo Group

Dear Graham, I'd like to invite you to join the RWiki Yahoo Group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rwiki/. Here's my preliminary description of the group:

This group is an informal association of administrators of religiously-based wikis. Most of us are using MediaWiki, but administrators of other wiki engines are also invited to join.

We envision this as a low-volume list where administrators of religiously rooted wiki communities can trade tips and ideas, work together to fight spambots and vandals, and so on.

RWiki is sponsored by OrthodoxWiki (http://www.orthodoxwiki.org). It is open to wikis based in all "recognized" religious communities. This generally does not include NRMs or groups commonly described as "cults."

The archives of this list are kept private, and membership is restricted to those who genuinely qualify for this kind of group. Please apply with the name and URL of your wiki, as well as a description of your role in managing it.

Yours in Christ --John S. (User:FrJohn at http://orthodoxwiki.org)

vandalism in general

Hi, I am the creator of the new Bible encyclopedia wiki based in the United States called, Wikible. I noticed that this site is getting hammered all the time with spam. I was just curious what kind of spam protection you are using? I am using the Bad Behavior mediawiki extension at my site. Also, I've noticed this site is using a very old version of MediaWiki. perhaps a upgrade to the latest stable version, 1.5.6 (as of this post), would help curb that somewhat. As you know, spammers will try to use vulnerabilities in software to their advantage, and it would probably help to upgrade. Have a good day, and keep serving the savior! --Ymmotrojam 04:51, 22 Jan 2006 (EST)

Shorter URLs

Hi there. I recently responded to your "open letter". I'm starting to dig a little deeper into WikiChristian; I had been spending most of my time on Wikible.org. May I recommend this nifty tip to help clean up the wikichristian URLs? (I've also added this to Prab's talk page since he seems to be more technically-oriented.) --J. J. 18:21, 26 July 2006 (PDT)

Still watching

I got your comment on Wikipedia. Even though I'm not spending as much time here, I still check the "Recent changes" page frenquently to get a pulse on what's happening with the wiki. --J. J. 10:13, 8 August 2006 (PDT)

Thanks

Hey, Graham! Thanks for your support of me being a sysop. I agree with you in that it would be a good thing for admins to have varying beliefs, as long as they all accept Christ as their Lord and Savior. Both you and Tom seem to want me to help out as an admin, yet nobody's promoted me yet; is this because you need permission from Prab first?

God bless!
P.B. Pilhet / Talk 22:37, 21 October 2006 (EST)

Deletion of C.S. Lewis (overview)

Hey, Graham! Sorry if I shouldn't have deleted that page. Do you want me to undelete it, or will you do that, or what? I just figured that, since the overview page was actually smaller than the main page, it would just be easier to have it all on one page. I thought that if the article ever did get bigger, then the overview page could simply be created again. Otherwise, with the article as it is, an overview page seems, at least to me, to just take up database space and clutter up the article. But either way I won't delete any more overview pages again, if you guys don't want me to :-)

God bless!
P.B. Pilhet / Talk 17:09, 22 October 2006 (EST)

No problems. That's fine what you did. I think that your approach to delete the page was fine; we can always recreate it later if need be. I'd prefer you not to delete the overview articles, but I know that Tom has a different point of view. You do what you think is best. Keep in mind that there are a lot of different view points in Christianity, and at least the system with overviews allows for people to contribute either to the overview, or alternatively to create opinion style articles. --Graham grove 17:12, 22 October 2006 (EST)

Okay, Graham! I don't really like the overview system, but I'll leave it alone to be on the safe side.

God bless,
P.B. Pilhet / Talk 17:17, 22 October 2006 (EST)

Vandalism

Hey Graham. I don't mind the accidental block :-)

It seems to be pretty simple to change move permissions. Whoever has access to the server will have a file called LocalSettings.php. In that file, there's a section that looks like this:

$wgGroupPermissions['*' ]['createaccount'] = true; $wgGroupPermissions['*' ]['read'] = true; $wgGroupPermissions['*' ]['edit'] = true; $wgGroupPermissions['*' ]['createpage'] = true; $wgGroupPermissions['*' ]['createtalk'] = true;

$wgGroupPermissions['user' ]['move'] = true; $wgGroupPermissions['user' ]['read'] = true; $wgGroupPermissions['user' ]['edit'] = true; $wgGroupPermissions['user' ]['createpage'] = true; $wgGroupPermissions['user' ]['createtalk'] = true; $wgGroupPermissions['user' ]['upload'] = true; $wgGroupPermissions['user' ]['reupload'] = true; $wgGroupPermissions['user' ]['reupload-shared'] = true; $wgGroupPermissions['user' ]['minoredit'] = true;

$wgGroupPermissions['autoconfirmed']['autoconfirmed'] = true;

$wgGroupPermissions['bot' ]['bot'] = true; $wgGroupPermissions['bot' ]['autoconfirmed'] = true;

$wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['block'] = true; $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['createaccount'] = true; $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['delete'] = true; $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['deletedhistory'] = true; $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['editinterface'] = true; $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['import'] = true; $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['importupload'] = true; $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['move'] = true; $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['patrol'] = true; $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['protect'] = true; $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['rollback'] = true; $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['upload'] = true; $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['reupload'] = true; $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['reupload-shared'] = true; $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['unwatchedpages'] = true; $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['autoconfirmed'] = true;

$wgGroupPermissions['bureaucrat']['userrights'] = true;

I assume Prab is the only one with access to the server, so he just needs to change the bolded line from = true; to = false;. Since a lot of the vandalism is coming from the same people (I think), we might also want to install the Check User special extension, which will allow us to see which IP addresses an editor is using, so we can effectively ban him/her. -- P.B. Pilhet / Talk 13:43, 29 November 2006 (EST)

done :-) --Tom 15:48, 29 November 2006 (EST)

I noticed that you blocked Dan McQueen. Just thought I'd tell you that I had already blocked him earlier :-) P.B. Pilhet / Talk 17:13, 29 November 2006 (EST)

Thanks Tom for the changes to the server and P.B. Pilhet for the suggestion. I see Graham noted that he is unable to some pages due to the spam blocker. So, it may be helpful to post what exactly is the error message so that we can look into it further. I noticed that it is not accepting page break br. To remove the html br command, just copy the content to note pad, use search replace to remove the html start tag br html end tag . (I was not able to use the open and close arrow!, hope you understand). Paste the content back in the wiki. --Prab 14:05, 21 December 2006 (EST)

Help

I am wondering if you would like to help me with my with my wiki? It is a fairly new wiki that does not have many articles and is in the state of being set up. --Sir James Paul 10:04, 2 February 2007 (EST)

I do not care how active you are. --Sir James Paul 05:21, 4 February 2007 (EST)

• Graham grove, if there is ever a outbreak of vandalism here and you need some help feel free to contact me at meta wiki:) I would be happy to help you out. Have a nice week and god bless:) --Sir James Paul 07:45, 18 March 2007 (EST)

Images

Yeah, I got Prab off on the right foot; he said he had to fix a few other things too, but he got it working. I also have noticed the thumbnail problem, but I haven't got a clue as to how to fix it. I was able to help him only because of some info I got off of the MediaWiki website. Maybe I'll go and search around there again for any info on the thumbnail problem. -- P.B. Pilhet / Talk 18:21, 30 June 2007 (EST)

Hi Graham, I fixed the thumbnail problem. It is now working. To see an example, visit the Church history page. Thanks.

--Prab 10:23, 4 July 2007 (EST)

Question

Hi there,

As a newly registered user, I was surprised to see that there was no set page of "rules" for users to follow. Consequently, I'm curious as to whether or not there is a need to have a certain ideological conformity in order to edit here, or whether people with certain beliefs are not allowed to edit.

I would also like to know what parts of the wiki need working on, so I may apply myself to them.

Thanks, -Hojimachong 12:16, 21 September 2007 (EST)

Hi Hojima. Good questions. I've tried to answer them at your talk page - User talk:Hojimachong. Thanks for signing up. --Graham grove 16:38, 21 September 2007 (EST)

Recent Vandalism

Hi Graham. Unfortunately, we've been getting hit with a lot of vandalism recently. I just finished reverting a bunch. It always reminds me of how fallen our world is. Anyway, I just wanted to let you know to please be careful while you're importing those new Bible verses; a vandal could theoretically sneek a couple of bad edits in between your imports, and we'd never see them because your work fills up all of the recent changes. So, before each new import, would you please remember to check the recent changes page for vandalism? Thanks! -- P.B. Pilhet / Talk 13:39, 28 October 2007 (EST)

Re:Welcome

I am a Christian but I don't go to church because some people that go to church are hypocrites. Please don't be offended I'm just saying some people. I tried to correct a spelling in the Adelaide article but I could'nt because its another word for a chemist (person) starting with P. I can't say the word because your Spam Filter thinks its an External Link and blocks it. Kathleen.wright5 11:08, 5 November (UTC)

Re:Priority Pages

I have just looked at the Priority Pages. The following are no longer Stubs:

• Bible
• Christianity
• Church history

As for the rest of the articles I'm not sure if they are Stubs. Kathleen.wright5 07:31, 6 November (UTC)

Re:Page in Vietnamese

Do you know that there is a page in the Special:Deadendpages written in Vietnamese? Its title is Thanhkink ngoiloi giude. Could you find someone to translate it, otherwise it will be in the Special:Deadendpages forever. Kathleen.wright5 14:00, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject Christianity Invitation

I have put an invitation to WikiProject Christianity on your Wikipedia Talk Page. Kathleen.wright5 06:14, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

---

Video Embedding in WikiChristian

Hi Graham,

I am glad you liked the video embedding feature that I installed on WikiChristian server. I really felt strongly about it too and truly blessed listening some of the Melodious songs. We can also include sermons, gospel preachings, news videos etc. in addition songs. For any article on Wikichristian, we can reference a relevant YouTube video, if available. All is well with us. It is really fun having a little one in the family. I am sure you are having fun with your little son too! I will try to work on the ref. feature also so we can refence like in Wikipedia.

--Prab 01:12, 9 February 2008 (PST)

Page references or Foot notes

Hi Graham,

I have installed the <ref> </ref> feature on WikiChristian as you requested. It basically creates an automatic numbered foot note whenever you use the tag <ref>. See it in action in sandbox.

--Prab 02:04, 9 February 2008 (PST)

Invitation

Hi Graham, Kathleen Wright just wanted me to remind you that she put an invitation to WikiProject Christianity on your Wikipedia Talk Page. It's been there since Nov 2007. God bless, -- P.B. Pilhet / Talk 19:09, 16 April 2008 (PDT)

Adminship

Ohai Graham. I'm new here on WikiChristian. I know it's sudden, but may I have adminship? I could help out with administrative objectives here. I'm trusted on many other wikis (see user page). If you have any questions you would like to ask me, feel free to do so. Thanks, -- Ryan†Cross (talk) 21:55, 22 July 2008 (PDT)

I've taken care of this. -- P.B. Pilhet / Talk 01:07, 23 July 2008 (PDT)

Question(s)

Since I'm a new at this wiki, I had a few questions: 1) Shouldn't the name of articles when the first appear in text (like wikipedia) be bold? 2) I noticed the sections of external links is either "External links" or "Links". Which one is preferred? Thanks, Ryan†Cross (talk) 12:27, 23 July 2008 (PDT)

I prefer simply "Links" but I guess either is okay. Regarding the name of the article when it first appears in the text, sure it can be bold - There isn't any special policy on the matter here. So go ahead, bold away if you want. Cheers. --Graham grove 12:50, 23 July 2008 (PDT)

Hm, the Page Layout page says "Links". Oh, and a lot of our articles don't have names bold. But I think it's better to have it bold, so I'll do those from time to time. By the way, is it okay if I create the Bureaucrats page (i.e Wikichristian.org:Bureaucrats)? Not to mention that the admin page doesn't say anything about what admins do... -- Ryan†Cross (talk) 12:55, 23 July 2008 (PDT)

Absolutely with regards to all 3 points. Your right, I'd forgotten, the layout page does say "Links". Let's stick to "Links" then for consistency. And yep, go ahead and produce the bureaucrats page plus add information about what admins do if you would like. Yep, making the first occurrence of the title bold sounds good. Thanks. --Graham grove 13:02, 23 July 2008 (PDT)

Your welcome. Glad to be here. :) But you may see me asking some questions from time to time. ;) -- Ryan†Cross (talk) 13:05, 23 July 2008 (PDT)

By the way, personally, I don't like the project namespace here (i.e Wikichristian.org:Name of page). I suggest moving it "WikiChristian:Name of page". What do you think? -- Ryan†Cross (talk) 13:10, 23 July 2008 (PDT)

If I may chime in here uninvited ... That's on my to do list. It requires FTP/SSH access to wiki setting files (LocalSettings.php) and I will be taking care of that as soon as I can. --Aquatiki 13:13, 23 July 2008 (PDT)

Administrator and bureaucrat policies

I rewrote the admin policy and will be working on the bureaucrat policy shortly. The admin policy is located here. Tell me what you think. Thanks, Ryan†Cross (talk) 04:31, 24 July 2008 (PDT)

Replied on User talk:RyanCross/Sandbox. Thanks, Ryan†Cross (talk) 04:51, 24 July 2008 (PDT)

Replied to your message at WC:VP. God bless. :) -- Ryan†Cross (talk) 21:09, 26 July 2008 (PDT)

Uploading Bible

Hi Graham, my name is Benny. I just found this wiki and I need your help. I am currently trying to upload Indonesian language bible in an Indonesian wiki site: http://www.in-christ.net/wiki Right now i'm doing it mostly manually, which is 'painful' and very slow. I wonder if there's a fast way to do that (using robot maybe) and if you could teach me how. Thank you very much. Bennylin 03:17, 25 July 2008 (PDT)

Hi Benny. Unfortunately I'm no expert on loading the Bible onto a wiki. The way I've done it in the past is by downloading the Bible as a text file and then writing a program in Visual Basic to separate each verse and create a large .xml file that can then be imported into the wiki using the "Import pages" function. It's probably not the best way. The user Aquitiki has done it a slightly different and more efficient way. But which-ever way you want to do it it is going to involve being able to use a programming language. Are you familiar with any language? --Graham grove 13:09, 25 July 2008 (PDT)

I'm pretty comfortable with php language, and right now i'm playing with wikipedia robot using perl language. I'll try the xml method. So you didn't use a robot? On second thought, I think using export page is easier than operating a robot, could you give me a tutorial on how did you separate each verse etc?

Also, I noticed an [edit] link on each verse, and thought that's funny, because it implies that any user could change scripture. I'd suggest a [discuss] link on each instead. Discuss this verse makes more sense in a bible wiki than Edit this verse. Bennylin 22:55, 25 July 2008 (PDT)

Sure. I'd be happy to help out if I can. Mind you, the way I did it isn't perfect and it is quite time consuming. Regarding the "edit" bit - we've had a discussion about that recently and a decision has been made to get rid of it for the very reason you've suggested.

The way I did it in short was

• Downloaded the Bible in a simple text file - I'm not sure where the best place for a public domain .txt Bible in Indonesian is - but I'm sure you'll have no trouble finding one
• Write a program in what-ever language you're most comfortable with (for me, Visual Basic) that outputs some text for each verse - something that looks like this:

<mediawiki>
  <page>
    <title>John 1:1</title>
    <id>99303</id>
    <revision>
      <id>342623</id>
      <timestamp>2008-07-25T22:50:43Z</timestamp>
      <contributor>
        <username>Graham or Benny or whoever</username>
      </contributor>
      <text xml:space="preserve">
{{verse|John|1|1}}
==Commentary==

==Links==

    </revision>
  </page>
 <page>
    <title>Template:John 1:1</title>
    <id>62502</id>
    <revision>
      <id>146326</id>
      <timestamp>2007-08-29T14:22:13Z</timestamp>
      <contributor>
        <ip>Graham</ip>
      </contributor>
      <text xml:space="preserve"><small>[[John 1:1|1]]</small> In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.</text>
    </revision>
  </page>


Etc for each verse

</mediawiki>

• You also need to make a template called: "Template:Verse" - see Template:Web verse for how it's done on WikiChristian
• Then all you need to do is import the file (or files if you do it bit by bit) into your wiki and you'll have the Bible on it

It's not a perfect system and I suggest you put install mediawiki on your home computer and try to import it into that first to make sure it all works.

User:Aquatiki has a slightly better system and makes use of robots. You may want to talk to him first before deciding to do it the way I've suggested. But if you decide to do it the way I've suggested I'm happy to give you some more help and share Visual Basic code with you if you think it might help

Cheers. --Graham grove 12:29, 28 July 2008 (PDT)

Many thanks. Appreciate it. Bennylin 23:55, 28 July 2008 (PDT)

Bureaucratship

Hi Graham. Since Special:Emailuser isn't currently working, I'll be happy to write my Christian beliefs and how I follow Jesus here. I was wondering if you've spoken to Prab about bureaucratship and who can become bureaucrats, since I would be happy to become one and help the community further. Will be waiting for a reply! Bye the way, I made some MediaWiki changes (still working on them) the other day, and was wondering what you thought of the top site notice. It should read "Welcome to WikiChristian! God bless". Was wondering if I should change that. God bless, Ryan†Cross (talk) 04:40, 29 July 2008 (PDT)

Hi Ryan. Thanks for the message. I like the notice and think it's fine. I've emailed Prab and asked him about bureaucratship. Waiting for his reply still. I'm not sure exactly what the decision will be about new bureaucrats - just so you know, and so that we're being transparent - the things that have been on my mind about b'crats is (1) should there be a time period (e.g. 3 months) of use before being able to become one? (2) are there any important doctrinal beliefs that are considered important to be a b'crat? As you've probably noticed WikiChristian has an evangelical Protestant flavour - do we want to keep that in the bureaucrats or not? I'm not sure - but if we do, we certainly want b'crats to be very flexible and happy to accept other points of view from other Christians; if we don't, then we certainly want to still maintain at least the core value of accepting the Bible as God's word, but with the realization that there is a wide variety of interpretations of much of it. Anyway, just wanted to update you on the thinking - this thinking has been going on from before you asked the question about becoming a b'crat. So it might be a few more days wait or so. Sorry about that. If you want to put information about your Christian beliefs / walk on your user page then that's great; or alternatively you can email it to me at graham_grove at yahoo dot com dot au. Cheers, --Graham grove 15:19, 30 July 2008 (PDT)

Hi Ryan. I've heard from Prab about the matter of b'crats and we reckon that while WikiChristian is small enough there is no particular need for a specific defined process about b'crats, but simply a case by case decision can be made. Prab's keen on the ecumenical nature continuing and so we don't think we need any sort of denominational or theological requirements for b'crats other than that they be committed Christians - Protestant, Catholic or Orthodox etc - all are okay. (I think personally however that it is important that they do agree with the simple points of faith that are on the WikiChristian:Page Layout and Statement of Faith pages). Hence, we're happy for you to be a b'crat so long as you are a committed Christian, which I gather you are - is that right? --Graham grove 00:24, 31 July 2008 (PDT)

Yes, absolutely. Very good to hear all this, Graham. :-) So, I'll be writing up my beliefs, how I am as a Christian, ect. shortly. I'll just write is here, probably at User:RyanCross/Christian. Best, Ryan†Cross (talk) 09:38, 31 July 2008 (PDT)

Resurfacing

Dear Graham, OK! I have resurfaced from my extended trip to the far side of the moon! I looked it up and I've done several hundred edits over on LyricWiki in the past week and my bot several hundred or more! Where was I?! I've lost my barrings over here on WC and I'm wonder where I should tackle next? Should I start moving pages? Creating pages? Perfecting Bible:John 1:1 still? Where were we? --Aquatiki 16:44, 1 August 2008 (PDT)

Hope you've had fun on your travels. Good work on LyricWiki. I had a look at the system you've strated there with stars - its a really good system! --Graham grove 23:51, 1 August 2008 (PDT)

But where to start here? Well, I reckon pefecting the Bible:John 1:1 is the way to go and then to get the whole Bible onto WikiChristian and then delete the old Bible verse and chapter pages. That in itself is going to be a major, major task. Let me know if you think this is a good area to work on now. or whether you think another area has greater need. --Graham grove 23:53, 1 August 2008 (PDT)

User:BotUm is working

Greek pages are going up right now. On Special:Recentchanges just click show bots. Latin, Hebrew and the two English versions will be even easier. Then I have to have it overwrite existing main-namespace pages with redirects and delete ..._(WEB) pages and Template:..._(WEB) pages. Does everything look good so far? --Aquatiki 17:59, 3 August 2008 (PDT)

Everything looks brilliant so far. I don't know how you do it! The work you've done here, once complete, will make WikiChristian infinitely more useful. Thanks. --Graham grove 22:48, 3 August 2008 (PDT)

I was right about to start creating Bible:John 1:2 etc when I remembered, where should the John 1:1 (discussion) link point on new pages? John 1:1 (discussion) or Bible:John 1:1 (discussion)? Do we want those showing up in Special:Random (i.e. articles) or Special:Random/Bible (random verses/chapters)? --Aquatiki 01:31, 6 August 2008 (PDT)

Good question. I think it should be at: Bible:John 1:1 (discussion). Do you agree? By the way, your work with your bot has been fantastic. I've been watching it with eager interest. I've also been watching you working over at ReformedWord. Wow - that's what comes to mind! --Graham grove 01:52, 6 August 2008 (PDT)

Flattery will get you nowhere! I haven't seen a (discussion) page from a verse/chapter yet, but I assume it has a big, fat link back to the verse/chapter, so that'd be fine to have in Bible:. I'll go brush up on my deletion algorithms and get back to work. --Aquatiki 02:33, 6 August 2008 (PDT)

Will you check Bible:John 1:2 before I proceed? --Aquatiki 02:51, 6 August 2008 (PDT)

A few little changes. Added some underscores in place. Moved the translations up a slot. What do you reckon? If you're happy with it, go for it. --Graham grove 03:25, 6 August 2008 (PDT)

Quick, Bible:John 1:3! Bot is running and I need to go to work? Can I leave it running as it? --Aquatiki 03:32, 6 August 2008 (PDT)

Perfect. Let it go for it. Enjoy work. --Graham grove 03:40, 6 August 2008 (PDT)

My Christian beliefs

Hi there. You suggested I tell my Christian beliefs before I become a bureaucrat, so it can now be seen at User:RyanCross/Christian. Best, Ryan†Cross (talk) 00:12, 4 August 2008 (PDT)

I answered your questions. -- Ryan†Cross (talk) 16:53, 4 August 2008 (PDT)

The Next (destructive) Phase

OK! The next stage in this test match (of John) is to delete all the ..._(WEB) pages. Look here and you can see the beginning. Shall I begin? --Aquatiki 11:14, 6 August 2008 (PDT)

Yep. Go for the destruction. --Graham grove 11:17, 6 August 2008 (PDT)

The rest'll have to wait til I get home. My remote desktop app just died. I'll get Um to finishing in about 4 hours. :( --Aquatiki 11:39, 6 August 2008 (PDT)

No problems. No rush. Hope work is quiet. --Graham grove 11:55, 6 August 2008 (PDT)

Next, (after this run is done), I propose to delete everything beginning with "John" in the Template namespace (see [1]). Sound right? --Aquatiki 16:55, 6 August 2008 (PDT) P.S. I just like to keep checking with you so that I'm never worried I'm doing something wrong ... a thousand times!

Go for it. It's helpful for me to see how you're going about this process. Double checks are always useful anyway especially when its an automated process. --Graham grove 02:35, 7 August 2008 (PDT)

I'm leaving for work again. When I get back, Um will create or overwrite all pages in the main namespace (John 10:10-John 9:9 as the bots count) with #REDIRECT [[John XX:XX]]. Yes? Then John will be done ... right? --Aquatiki 03:29, 7 August 2008 (PDT)

Yep. Except I imagine you mean to over-write with #REDIRECT [[Bible:John XX:XX]]. Sounds good. --Graham grove 03:32, 7 August 2008 (PDT)

OK! The final, smashing, destructive step is underway! --Aquatiki 17:05, 7 August 2008 (PDT)

OK, Time for Quality-Process Improvement

Hey Graham, Now is the time to let me know about anything you seen wrong with the John process as it went or the pages as they stand. Barring any corrections that we need Um to do, I will do Genesis without stopping after every, little thing. Then, if that worked out, I'll do the whole NT, then the OT. --Aquatiki 03:59, 8 August 2008 (PDT)

Hi Robert. I haven't noticed any big problems at all. Seems to have worked very well. A few times the Greek text isn't quite right (I think that applies to verses that have variants). So, I say, let's go for it! Thanks. --Graham grove 05:51, 8 August 2008 (PDT)

What Greek are you comparing it to?

I'm soooo tired (I've work 37 out of the last 38 days) that I'm gonna fall asleep. I start Genesis in the morning. G'night! --Aquatiki 05:55, 8 August 2008 (PDT)

Whoa. 37 out of 38 days! That's a lot of work. Sleep. Rest. (I'll find one of the very few examples where the Greek didn't quite work and I'll put a link to it here. But you'll see that it's no big deal). Thanks. --Graham grove 06:05, 8 August 2008 (PDT)

Okay, it took me ages to find one of the pages where the Greek wasn't quite right, which just goes to show how few bad pages there are. But here's one of them: Greek:John 20:21. By the way, I see that Um is on his way with Genesis. Excellent. --Graham grove 11:47, 8 August 2008 (PDT)

That was a tricky one. Normally, the text uses {} to denote textual variates, but that time they used []. I have added a catch for that and will get BotUm to fix all those in John. Good catch. --Aquatiki 13:54, 8 August 2008 (PDT)

Bible Dictionary v Easton's Bible Dictionary

Do we really need two Bible dictionaries that say exactly the same thing? I'd like to delete the pages of Bible Dictionary that redirect to Easton's or have the same content if that's OK with you? Kathleen.wright5 00:33, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Good idea. Please do that. It's something I've been meaning to do for ages. --Graham grove 03:36, 10 August 2008 (PDT)

Question about John (EBD)

I know you have to backup when you're re-uploading the Gospel of John, but why has John (EBD) been changed to Backup: John (EBD) with a redirect to John (EBD)? I wanted to put it in the Category:Apostles. Kathleen.wright5 00:53, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Hi Kathleen. Yeah, that was only named that in case something went wrong with the uploading of the Gospel of John. It can be moved back to the original name. --Graham grove 03:31, 10 August 2008 (PDT)

How'd It Go?

What do you think of Genesis? How can I improve the process? After this, I was thinking about uploading the whole NT at a time. It would be all the WEB, KJV, Latin, Greek, Hebrew, Bible pages, redirects and then deletion, each one going all the way through and then starting on the next. How do things look from your end? --Aquatiki 23:25, 10 August 2008 (PDT)

It seems to have gone very well to me - I can't see any major problems that have occurred. You've been very thorough and I reckon that importing the whole New Testament as you've done for John and Genesis would be excellent. I look forward to seeing Um do his work. I imagine once Um starts it will probably take a number of days to do it all? --Graham grove 11:42, 11 August 2008 (PDT)

Oh yes! And will start each chain off by hand. That is, I'll make one big files of all the KJV and tell it to start that. Then I'll make one big file of the WEB and tell it to start that, etc. etc. Each one will take 1 day-ish I guess. --Aquatiki 13:37, 11 August 2008 (PDT)

Wikibreak

Hi there. I just wanted to let you know I'll be taking a break from WikiChristian for a while. I wish this wiki all the best. I'll probably come in here and there. Thanks, Ryan†Cross (talk) 04:35, 19 August 2008 (PDT)

Thanks for your help. Hope you have a nice break. --Cleaner 09:23, 19 August 2008 (PDT)

Bot Halt

I see that BotUm has gotten stuck in Matthew for so reason. I will check it out when I get home in five hours. --Aquatiki 11:00, 29 August 2008 (PDT)

Thanks Robert for keeping a watch on him. What's next on the agenda. Delete the New Testament WEB pages and WEB templates and overwrite the New Testament pages with redirects to the Bible namespace? Or upload the Greek and Hebrew Old Testament and Apocrypha? Oh, by the way, I'm fiddling with ideas for how to do the chapter pages. What are your thoughts and ideas for the chapter pages. Also, do you think the chapter pgaes are best in the Bible namespace or the main namespace? I'm thinking that they might be best in the main namespace. --Graham grove 13:32, 29 August 2008 (PDT)

I was gonna finish all my uploading first, so that the pages we make look their best first. As for the chapters, how much material are they supposed to have on them? Seems to me like they will be as spartan as the verse pages until people take a special interest in editing one of them. I think this is 3500 hundred pages that'll clog up the main namespace, but you decide. Can you point me to a good example one of these for me to pattern after? --Aquatiki 13:36, 29 August 2008 (PDT)

I'm not hugely fussed either way. In the main namespace there's two advantages - people will come across them with the "random page" function and so may add something; also you don't get a chapter when you click "random verse" if they are in the main namespace. The disadvantage, like you say, is 3500 empty pages that will come up on clicking "random page".

Some examples of the chapter pages are: Backup:John 11, Backup:Matthew 16, Backup:Genesis 1, Backup:Mark 1, Backup:Luke 15 and Backup:Luke 10. --Graham grove 13:52, 29 August 2008 (PDT)

Linking to the Bible pages

Hi Graham. So I'm starting to work on some apologetics pages, and while I know you wanted to have the Scripture references link to the Bible pages, I'm not sure it's feasible. I assume WikiChristian doesn't have the Bible Gateway feature of being able to link to a specific passage, e.g. <some book> 2:20-3:5, and that there's only individual verse and chapter pages? If the passage in question is just one verse, I could link to the corresponding Bible page, though it seems a bit inconsistent if the other links are to Bible Gateway.

Sorry if I'm being too detail-oriented; I work on user interfaces as part of my real-life job, so I get paid to worry about details and consistency and that sort of thing. :-)

Oh, and thanks for making me a sysop.

--india 15:31, 18 September 2008 (PDT)

That's correct about only linking to either individual verses or whole chapters. Feel free to link how you want. You could consider linking like this Luke 2:26-38 but you do what you think works best. --Graham grove 10:01, 19 September 2008 (PDT)

Cleaner inserting redlinks

Could you please tell Cleaner not to insert redlinks at the end of EBD pages. I've just removed some from pages (see recent changes). Kathleen.wright5 23:55, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

You don't like red-links? Fair enough - we'll make no more red-links in the EBD pages. Remember though that the Easton Bible Dictionary pages aren't meant to be the information article for a topic. For example, Jesus is the main article on Jesus, and it links to the Easton's Bible Dictionary page on Jesus (Jesus (EBD)) in its info-box on the right hand side. Ultimately WikiChristian aims to have independent information articles for every topic and these will link to their appropriate Easton's Bible Dictionary page or Matthew Henry Commentary page etc. --Graham grove 04:13, 3 October 2008 (PDT)

By the way I think you are doing a great job with your cleaning up of the EBD pages and linking to other EBD pages. So thank you heaps for your hard work. I have noticed that you are linking to wikipedia sometimes through the EBD pages. What do you reckon about holding off on links to Wikipedia from within the EBD arciles themselves? (Ideally I think that all links within WikiChristian should be internal, unless they are under the ==Links== section of an information article - see WikiChristian:Page Layout). What are your thoughts? --Graham grove 04:18, 3 October 2008 (PDT)

I thought I was adding value with links to Wikipedia (e.g Knights Hospitallers and Crusades), but if you think its inappropriate I'll stop. I'm also doing the same thing at Wikisource through Wikisource:WikiProject Bible dictionaries, where there are only 2 active members me and Carlaude Kathleen.wright5 08:44, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

I think you've been doing an outstanding job with the cleaning up and linking you've been doing and that you should be proud of what you've done. I guess I'm just trying to think about WikiChristian's future. In my mind it is better that we link internally in WikiChristian to the Knights Hospitallers and Crusades rather than to Wikipedia's version - even if these articles don't exist currently in WikiChristian, hopefully they will in the future. If you are very keen on continuing to inter-link into wikipedia and wikisource then feel free to continue doing so, but if you are happy to hold-off on any inter-linking then I think that would be even better. But you decide what you think is best, given that you are the main person working on the EBD pages. Oh, by the way, the EBD pages are likely to be moved in the near future - see my discussion with Robert above about a new name-space Text. Thanks once again Kathleen. --Graham grove 12:48, 3 October 2008 (PDT)

Created namespace

The TEXT namespace has been created. --Aquatiki 13:13, 3 October 2008 (PDT)

Brilliant. Thanks Robert. --Graham grove 13:17, 3 October 2008 (PDT)

Lost it

I commented in EBD. Where was our mock-up of a chapter page? I'm trying to program it now, but I can't remember where we'd made a model ... --Aquatiki 13:24, 4 October 2008 (PDT)

Sorry it's taking me so long to respond. For some reason WikiChristian seems to have slowed down to an absolute snail-pace over here. Everything else on the internet is working fine. Is the problem happening to you too? If not then I wonder why it is happening to me. I can't remember where the chapter page is, but I'll look for it and let you know as soon as I find it. Thanks. --Graham grove 13:28, 4 October 2008 (PDT)

Found it Bible:John 1:1/sandbox!!

Try Genesis 1

and let me know, quick! --Aquatiki 15:45, 4 October 2008 (PDT)

Excellent. That looks great! Nothing needs changing. --Graham grove 15:48, 4 October 2008 (PDT)

Quick question

Graham,

I am helping a Aussie based Christian ministry expand their internet effectiveness. I am also doing the same for a couple of notable American ministries. I was wondering if I could speak to you in private regarding a matter. Do you have Skype, Yahoo IM, or AIM and if so could we please have a quick and cordial chat. Theologian 23:49, 7 October 2008 (PDT)

Hi. Probably the easiest way to get in contact with me is simply through my email address. Sorry that it isn't quite as quick as skyping or something similar. My email is grahamlgrove at gmail dot com. --Graham grove 10:21, 8 October 2008 (PDT)

Backup Namespace

Is it OK to remove Backup:Name of page pages? Kathleen.wright5 11:10, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Only if you transfer the relevant commentary content of them into the appropriate bible chapter page first. So yep, go for that if you want. Thanks. --Graham grove 12:10, 10 October 2008 (PDT)